I finally got everything bolted on. I couldn't take off the dowel pins on the old water pump to put on the new one. So I put the old water pump back and now its leaking. I'm waiting for the new dowel pins I ordered.

Here's what I have on the car:
1990 Civic Si.
Zdyne 1 wire conversion ECU
Stock 90' Si intake manifold, throttle body and distributor
Y8 head w/Z6 cam

I was actually impressed that the car started up at first try.. BUT
(there's always a but) I have three things to troubleshoot..
1. There's a slight knock. Kind of like http://www.jovialrobot.net/justin/files/headtap.mp3 but not THAT severe. If that knock is a 10 on a 1 to 10 scale, I'd rate mine a 2 or 3. I have 89 Octane fuel in the car right now.

2. There a two points of hesistation when I get on the gas. One around 2700 RPMS and again at 3300 RPMS.

3. I can't get the timing up. I physically advanced the dizzy all the way but the TDC mark is no where near the center of the three marks. So I'm guessing I'm running at around 12 degrees? I don't think I missed a tooth when lining up the timing belt. Should I intentionally skip a tooth to get the timing up to spec? If I do skip a tooth, which way should I turn the cam, counterclockwise?

I have no check engine lights and there is no smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Any suggestions??

 

1. try a little octane booster or retard your timing a bit and see if it goes away

2. not sure, anyone else?

3. i pretty sure the z6 cam is 5 degrees advanced/retarded (i forget which) as opposed to the y8, so you might need a cam gear set to 5deg to get it back to normal which will also have an effect on your ingnition timing

 

1. Hmm. I'll try rotating the distributor all the way to maximum retardation and see if it goes away. I'm guessing that the compression is close to 11 with the Y8 head/D16A6, headgasket combo?The tank probably has only 3 or 4 gallons left, so I might just try getting 92 octane fuel on the next fill-up. Gotta wait to fix the water pump first. I'm assuming that the water pump is the one that is leaking coolant since I wasn't too confident with the old gasket. Plus the coolant was dripping from the timing belt cover. I might as well check all the coolant hoses while I'm at it.

for #3. The z6 cam must have been retarded. I'll spend the money on an adjustable cam if that brings it up to spec. Can't I just skip a tooth as a workaround? How many degrees is a tooth? [edit] Oh.. and where would I buy an adjustable cam gear?[end edit]



[Modified by arren123, 2:59 PM 7/14/2002]

 

your water pump didnt come with dowl pins? did you get the pump from Honda?

im running a similar setup to you

a6 block / y8 head (though im using a y2k y8 intake manifold) my distributor is set roughly at the "half way" area where it bolts up and that was 15° i think..so it was pretty close..sounds like you might have your T-belt off a tooth?

put in the high test octane by the way92+...

good luck!

 

Nope.. Didn't come with dowel pins. I got it off the guy who sold me the mini-me head.

Remember, I'm using the Y8 head with a Z6 cam (because the Y8 cam broke at the end). I'll check it again when the new water pump comes in.. Thanks!

I'll probably try and advance it a tooth.

 

Oh yeah.. I forgot to mention that I set my valve lash to 0.006 intake 0.009 exhaust if that matters!

 

did you check if the timing belt matches the marks "tdc"block "up"cam
my minime did that because the belt jump one tooth



[Modified by daniel89civ, 8:16 PM 7/14/2002]

 

i used 92-95 timing belt

 

There are marks on the timing belt? I didn't see any. I double checked the alignment of the markings before I buttoned everything up. I even spun the cam a few times to see if everything lined up. I'm thinking more and more that I missed a tooth

 

Be sure to get those dowel pins for the water pump... and make sure you get some Blue RTV sealant to make a gasket around the pump.

The mini-me setup can be VERY difficult to get running the way it should.. BTW= it wont feel MUCH stronger than a Stock d16a6.. I gave up on mine and went back to stock d16a6. The single most difficult part is getting the timing correct..

Through the symptoms you have shown.. it all points to the timing. Seems like you did a good job on everything else.. youre not throwing any goods, which is impressive for the first try. Upon start up, i was throwing 2 codes.. and a friend of mine was throwing 3-4 codes..
A few things to check: 1. make sure you get the TDC marks correct.. Remember the marks are going to be off.. so straight TDC will not correct timing.. you are most likely off a tooth.. cant tell you which way to turn the cam..
2. Octane... just use the normal 91-92 octane.. the booster wont do anything.. Compression shouldnt be soo high that you need to run 100+..
3. Take into consideration that you are mixing and matching parts.. I would suggest converting everything OBD-1.. intake manifold, injectors, ecu, distrib... fuel mapping will also be better suited for the head..
Not sure if it matters.. but the valve lash for that cam in a D16Z6 motor is 0.007-0.009 intake.. and 0.009-0.011 exhaust.. your lash might be a little tight for the cam... but it shouldnt matter.. just a heads up.
Good Luck..


[Modified by [626]Rj-SiHatchy, 5:05 AM 7/15/2002]

 

I read that you need to take this out before put the vtec head on. The vtec head already has an oil control jet.

The think is I never hear anybody mention it.

5th paragraph "Starting the Saga...."
http://crx.honda-perf.org/articles/z6swap/z6swap.html

 

Yep! I took the oil control jet out Thanks for the heads up.

 

Ok. I couldn't wait for the water pump, so I spent an hour to advance the timing belt one tooth. I rotated the cam counterclockwise and slipped on the timing belt.
It runs much smoother now and no hesistation. Also, the timing is right on the mark now.

I still have two problems and one more that cropped up -- 1. the water pump leak which should be an easy fix, and 2. the damned knocking. Hopefully its fixed by putting new gas.
I'm thinking it could either be 1. Bent valves or 2. Bad gas The power seemed great when I stepped on the gas, so that can rule out bent valves, right? If I had bent valves I wouldn't be hearing a knock, right? So I'm hoping to dear God that its just the gas.. Any one around my area care to do a compression test for me?

And finally, here's the new problem. I ran the car with the top timing belt cover off.. The camshaft pulley has a wobble I'll have to recheck the cam gear to see if its mounted flush.. Can I swap it with my A6 cam gear if I think the cam gear is the problem? The wobble is very noticible. I hope the timing belt doesn't come off.. I can't imagine that the camshaft is bent. It has to be the cam gear that's screwed. I remember the bolt came loose when I tried to rotate it counter clockwise with the timing belt still on the cam. I retightened the bolt with the timing belt still on. So I'm thinking that's why its not lined up.. (Mental note to tighten it with timing belt off. )

Note: I changed the spark plugs and wires with new ones and set the timing, but I didn't redo the valve lash after changing the timing belt by a tooth.
[edit]
Oh. When I took it for a test drive around the block, it felt nice and torquey, more than stock thats for sure. The sound from the engine bay was also louder and more deep sounding. When taking it around the block, the knocking wasn't as loud as before when the timing was off.
[edit off]

[Modified by arren123, 6:12 PM 7/15/2002]


[Modified by arren123, 6:18 PM 7/15/2002]

 

is it a ping or a knock?

 

Sounds more similar to the mp3 clip that I posted above..
I'm not sure what a ping sounds like, so I couldn't really tell you.
My mental model of a ping is like a ping when you flip a coin with your thumnail..


[Modified by arren123, 6:20 PM 7/15/2002]

 

a knock is when you start it up in the morn and it knocks till it warms up and goes away and knocks when you give it gas.a ping is when say your driving and in 2nd then go to 5th and floor it,that sound is a ping.the ping is from low octane fuel and to advanced ignition timming.

 

OK.. did some searching and found this at http://www.onestopundercar.net/page.asp?c=troublefinder

--Begin Paste --

Ping - A high-pitched metallic tapping sound, related to engine speed.

Usually caused by fuel with a lower octane rating than recommended. Check your owner's manual for the proper octane rating. You may want to switch to a different gas octane or gas station. If the problem persists, engine ignition timing could be the culprit.

Heavy Knock - A rhythmic pounding sound.

Worn crankshaft or connecting rod bearings.
Loose transmission torque converter.

-- End paste ---
Based on these definitions, I don't think I have a knock.. At least I dont' have a heavy knock. The engine ran great before I changed heads. So it can't be the bottom end. So that leaves me with a ping I guess ? <shrug?>

But according to your examples. My noise is very slight when it starts up and then after about 5 seconds its pronounced. It remains until the engine is warmed up at idle and when I accellerate.



[Modified by arren123, 6:38 PM 7/15/2002]

 

do you have a timing light? thats what causes pinging.its too advanced.

 

Yep. used a timing light. But the sound was there when the timing was way too retarded when I missed the tooth on the timing belt. I don't think retarding it will help much. I really wish I could record the sound or hear a clip of a ping. I'm so confused as what I'm really hearing.

The sound is definitely engine speed related and its definitely not a valve tap. I guess I'll have to wait for the new water pump so i can get the coolant leak fixed before I go drive it and fill it up at the gas station.

The coolant started leaking out after I filled the radiator up and BEFORE I started the engine. So I'm 90% sure its coming from the water pump.

So here's where it stands:
1. I've ruled out the bottom end being a problem
2. I'm confused as to what I'm actually hearing
3. Its probably the gas pre-detonating because of the higher compression
Dummy me should have filled it up with premium gas prior to installing the head
4. I can't find out if its the gas until I fill it up with higher octane gas.
5. Waiting for parts is a bitch.

 

Ok.. Here's an update on the situation.
1. The parts came in and I installed a new rotor and distributor cap.
2. The first time I did the valve adjustment, I was too excited and adjusted the intake to 0.009 and the exhaust to 0.006. I corrected this.
3. The cam gear wobble is solved. It was actually the cam gear that was faulty. I installed my stock A6 cam gear and it spins true now.
4. The water pump leak is fixed. The new water pump installation did the trick. Upon inspection of the old pump, I found that a chunk of the gasket was missing.
5. Timing might be way off again. I think i missed 1 tooth again. Hey, at least I'm consistent! I only spot checked it on a cold engine because it was 1 am and I didn't want to bother the neighbors. I'll recheck and possible advance the timing belt one tooth again.
6. The engine knock (I think its actually a ping) is not very bad anymore, but its still there. I'll fill up the tank with premium as soon as I get the timing squared away.

So, everything looks good so far!! Just two more things to troubleshoot

 

damn wish i woulda seen this sooner where u from in NJ?? anyways premium is a must now to keep it running mine didnt run right at first untill i looked at my wires and saw that 2 and 3 were revesed heh good luck

 

Results are in!
I finally finished up with the car this mornign
Car runs smooth, timing is great, and it idles perfect. There's no smoke when I go WOT and no leaks anywhere.

The only thing I'm not sure of is if its switching over to VTEC. I tested the solenoid, and got 19 ohms testing the connector to ground. I ran the car with the wire disconnected and with it connected. I'm not sure if its engaging or not. Its not blaring obvious that it switched over to VTEC like in a Type R, so I'm not sure. Any ideas of hwo to test this?

I also did a compression test. (My first ever).
The first two tests I didn't know what I was doing and forgot to go WOT when cranking it.

Here are the numbers (cranked 9 times):
1. 228, 251
2. 243, 252
3. 250, 259
4. 260, 261

Here are the numbers after I did the test correctly with WOT and 8 cranks):
1. 271
2. 270
3. 270
4. 271

W w. That's pretty high compared to stock B16A6, right? I think stock is only around 157 psi?

What would be my approximate compression ratio with the numbers I'm putting out?

 

if you want to check the vtec, you can put a light bulb or led inline with the circuit and see if it turns on at the right rpm

good job on your swap!! mine went totally downhill when i tried to do the mini me

 

mini-me is god damn hard to get running right

i envy you dood

im at the point where i want to convert back to A6


the very first time i completed my swap it ran like a champ... even the vtec poped and the car accelerated stronger from 4800-7400rpm

recently i blew a headgasket and re-did that and since that it has not wanted to run correctly

For my timing, I stuck a chopstick(only thing i had to fit down cyl 1) down cylinder 1 and cranked the main pulley until cylinder one was at TDC...then i proceeded to remove the timing belt and adjusted my head until the marks lined up to the arrows on the sides...I then slapped on my timing belt

I have a skunk2 cam hear and right now it is set at 0 degrees

even with everything at TDC will i still be 5 degrees off??

is one tooth= to 5 degrees?

is that 5 degrees in cam timing or ignition timing?

 

I just took my time and quadrouple checked everything. Even then, I found out that I missed putting back a hose clamp. Luckily the hose was already form fitted tight on there so nothing leaked out. I could've run the car just fine without it, but I put it back on as a precaution.

I guess vtec is working. I THOUGHT I heard vtec engage when I went through the rpms. I can feel the car is strong accelerating from 3000 to 7000 rpms. The power doesn't die off like the stock D16A6 motor I was running. I think on the stock head the power died off around 5000 rpms. I have one concern though. When I got to 7000 rpms, i heard a pop and it felt like the fuel cut off. I didn't hold the gas down to see if it was hitting the rev limiter. However the rev limit should be set at 6800 rpms cold 7800 hot. This happened 2 out of 2 times I ventured to 7000 rpms. I'll try and hold it there for a couple seconds when I get enough courage.

As for the timing. I was one tooth off and it made my ignition timing about 18 degrees retarded.

How can you tell if your head gasket is blown? I think my old one was going. When I went WOT, I could see whitish smoke come out the tailpipe for a bit and then go away. The car would consume 1 qt of oil pretty fast. Also, when I drained the radiator, the coolant was a blackish/brownish color. When I removed the old water pump, valve cover, and distributor cap. ALL the gaskets were brittle and broke apart.