I race a Civic EG with the folowing setup:

Koni+GC 450f/600r set at full soft front and full stiff rear
Camber 3deg front / 2 deg rear
Toe 1/16 toe out front / zero rear
Caster very close to zero
no front bar / 22mm rear
5.5" front ride height 6" rear measured from rocker panel
pressure is 35psi front 32psi rear (measured hot)
tire size is 205/45/16

I have tried many combinations and settings but cant get rid of the understeer problem. The car also has very slow steering response.

I just read the latest issue of sport compact car and an article by Andy Hope racing a civic EG and he describes the exact same problem!!! but doesnt go about telling how or if it was solved.

I have searched through the forum and though i found some posts on understeer, none of the solutions helped. Also no one seems to have the slow steering response problem that i have. Fact is i drove a friends EG civic on the track and the only thing he had done to his car was cut the stock springs and his car turns in razer sharp while mine feels like a whale.

 

riding on bumstops?

 

I have tried the tie wrap trick and i cant really tell as the are pretty close to the bump stops after a hard run.. but then again i have top hats on the front and the shocks are supposed to move into the top hats for more travel

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BRN12345 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I race a Civic EG with the folowing setup:

Koni+GC 450f/600r set at full soft front and full stiff rear
Camber 3deg front / 2 deg rear
Toe 1/16 toe out front / zero rear
Caster very close to zero
no front bar / 22mm rear
5.5" front ride height 6" rear measured from rocker panel
pressure is 35psi front 32psi rear (measured hot)
tire size is 205/45/16

I have tried many combinations and settings but cant get rid of the understeer problem. The car also has very slow steering response.

I just read the latest issue of sport compact car and an article by Andy Hope racing a civic EG and he describes the exact same problem!!! but doesnt go about telling how or if it was solved.

I have searched through the forum and though i found some posts on understeer, none of the solutions helped. Also no one seems to have the slow steering response problem that i have. Fact is i drove a friends EG civic on the track and the only thing he had done to his car was cut the stock springs and his car turns in razer sharp while mine feels like a whale.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Curious, what was done to the car to remove the 1* of caster it came with stock? (Not that I think its actually the cause of your problems.)

No front bar could cause the font to take a little longer to take a set. Could be part of the steering response issue. Same thing with the shocks turned down to soft in the front.

Also, running the car with a rake could play into it a little here. I've noticed many racers seem to run an inverted rake, as in, the rear lower than the front. My DC2 seemed to oversteer on turn in easier with a little rake, but am unsure of why or exactly how it effects things.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No front bar could cause the font to take a little longer to take a set. Could be part of the steering response issue. Same thing with the shocks turned down to soft in the front.</TD></TR></TABLE> soft shocks will kill your steering response, especially if the front is underdampened. are the tie rod ends in good shape? i there any play in the steering? is this a manual rack?

also rake has two primary effects on a car: aerodynamics and center of gravity bias from the front to the rear.

 

What tires are you running?

 

where are your understeering?... on entry/mid/exit?

Are you on a track or auto-cross?

I have a similar setup exceot that I am on 195/55/14
But i have a front bar, and no rear bar with GC/koni 450/600

My front hot pressures are the same, but my rears are also 35 psi

It is VERY possible that you are bottoming out the front suspension, and this is making an understeering issue.

I know that I am bottoming out my front suspension.
Have your trimmed your bumpstops?

Have you tried raising the front to 6"?

I think the proper solution is rasing the car and the front spring rates.
But from what I heard, you will need revalved konis.

 

scrap the junk shocks and springs and add caster...

 

a little more info like what type of konis? race-revalved
400 lbs upfront seems a bit soft

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18CXr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">scrap the junk shocks and springs and add caster...

</TD></TR></TABLE>konis?

wait koni yellows right??

 

The setup sounds descent except for maybe the ride height/bumpstops as people have stated already, but those mounts should give plenty of travel. The front spring rate seems a little soft to me. It sounds the front susp MIGHT be bottoming out, but maybe not on the shock.

I use similar "junk" konis, shortened (for a DA, fit on an EG), with pretty large, but very progressive stock bumpstops(shortened), and up to 700f/550r with good luck autocrossing and a few days on track. 22mm front bar, 22mm rear bar, same alignment specs except 1.2 or so caster. Yes I know the shocks arent quite up to the spring rates, but its really not that bad.

I'd check 2 things.

If you have skunk2 upper arms and shortned shocks, the arms can hit the sheet metal above, both above the pivot bushings and above the very end of the arm.

Make sure the front tire is not contacting teh underside of the shock tower. I used to have this happen, mostly on more hilly/bumpy autocross courses, but my ride height is not very low. I used 225/50/15s also which have a larger diameter than civics typically use. When the outside front contacts the shock tower it suddenly limits susp travel while also acting as somewhat of a brake, the result is a sudden body roll, then understeer followed by a bounce, and repeat, very ugly. This could occur more smoothly on a track i suppose and just understeer w/o the bouncing.

Or, it could be the driving approach:

Maybe the driver needs to go deeper into the turn, if you do all the slowing down too early, then its all power through the turn, it will likely undesteer the way through. Im not trying to insult your skill as i dont know you, but when i started autocrossing i was constantly searching for more oversteer, but the real problem was I was not useing weight transfer, late braking, left foot braking, to change teh car's attitude- also rake seems to help you keep that weight transfer to the front which lets the rear rotate easily. Theory suggest that if our FF cars had less weight on the front tires they would understeer less. True only in steady state cornering, not true on acceleration! Theory also states that more weight= more traction, but this is not true when lateral loads are applied- so think corner entry and to a lesser degree on exit.

On that note, if you go into the turn too hot and overload the front tires trying to slow down too much while also tryign to turn the car will also plow badly.

Hope this helps.

 

Oh- I run both front and rears near full stiff.

 

Ignore Jack. If the shock body ain't green, he no love. Ask him how many times he's been rolled by a set of Koni's

Why 16"? Big brakes? I know you sent a PM asking about ducting. I can't help but wonder what brand of tire, and what cold pressure is? Ride height is about par for an IT/HC car

 

spring rates are too low up front. Assuming you are running an R compound and are anything less that 6 inchs front the jack point to the ground you are bottoming out. Just re-read the post that is your problem you are running into the bump stop.

I run around 1.5 times the front spring rate you do, and have a front sway bar and have a ride height of 5.5inchs from the jack point to the ground and most of the time i stay off the bump stops. There are a few spots on the tracks i run were i do get into them though.

 

Many thanks to all who responded. And here is the additional data you guys requested:

Tires :205/45/16 Kumho Escata V700 shaved

Upper control arms came with the front clip i bought and are the sliding balljoint type.

I have GC top hats on the front

Why 16" : because i already had the wheels

Regular Koni Sports (have race valved with 800F/1000R on order)

No i have not tried raising the front, bumpstops are cut in half, race on high speed track, understeer is in corner entry.

Rod ends are new and i lost the 1 deg caster when i put the adjustable upper control arms on (from a jdm DC2)

 

i say tire pressure, the rear is somehow low, i used to hv v70a before and i remembered my hot is 38 front and 37-38 at the rear.
front spring a little bit too soft that will kill the steering feel.
rise the front

 

Classic excessively soft front end combined with outside front riding the bump stop. Put those 600lb springs up front, buy some 800's for the rear and for the love of god put the front swaybar back on!

 

Also, make sure those adjustable ball joints aren't hitting the metal

 

Need more caster and good dampers

 

Sounds like you need to stiffen up the front in general. Stiffer springs (if you are hitting the bump stop), turn your shock adjustment back toward hard, and possibly a front antiroll bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Classic excessively soft front end combined with outside front riding the bump stop. Put those 600lb springs up front, buy some 800's for the rear and for the love of god put the front swaybar back on!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know alot of people who ran 450's on the front of eg's with no/or stock/or 25mm fsb, and they always had understeer. not sure how the sts ef guys get away with running front rates that low. What you have ordered will help.

when you hook your stock fsb back up, you will get your steering response back.

If you want to go lower, I would take the adjustable uca's off, they will contact the upper wheel well and limit travel. Then if you still need camber adjustment, you can go with the ingalls adjustable mounts.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoxjoe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know alot of people who ran 450's on the front of eg's with no/or stock/or 25mm fsb, and they always had understeer. not sure how the sts ef guys get away with running front rates that low. What you have ordered will help.
</TD></TR></TABLE>sts can do it because the tire tread wear is limited so they cant use r-comps.
that and they are probably the right height off the ground which is the rears type r's come with 250 up front.

 

stiffin the front up a bit and losen the rear as far as the shocks go !!!

 

Maybe you're running too much camber up front. this might not be correct but it's definately a possibility. Check to make sure after a session of driving that your tire is rolling to the edge.

 

try to raise your tire pressures on race day, i put about 45-55 front 50-55 psi in the rear. the higher pressure will allow the car to rotate in the turn a bit. you could stagger your wheel sizes. running a skinnier tire in the rear will alow the same rotating action.