are throttle body spacers worth there money or are they just a waist of time??? some one help me out

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98exturd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just a waist of time</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have your answer already.

 

I would have to disagree.... I installed an airraid throttle spacer on my 94' Si (d15B swap), and I find I have much better mid range power, plus it gives me another 1 - 2 miles to the gallon in general driving.

 

I've heard that the old carburated v8 guys use a similar spacer between the intake and carburator and it does wonders for them. but thats pry cuz it's mixing the air and gas, so that would be a lil different.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cherroneballs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've heard that the old carburated v8 guys use a similar spacer between the intake and carburator and it does wonders for them. but thats pry cuz it's mixing the air and gas, so that would be a lil different.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly!

On a carb motor it will help.

On an FI motor it is 100% useless and does nothing but lighten your wallet thus making you think your faster.

 

yea it was, and still is very popular on older carburetor cars. i had one one my z6, didnt notice much of a change. there was a change but it wasnt worth $100.

 

Anyone who paid more than $40 for a spacer is an idiot.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ho bag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On an FI motor it is 100% useless and does nothing </TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless you have one installed, don't speak what you don't know. I have one, my girl has one (Integra LS), and we both have positive results. If you know anything about physics, then you would know that there is more volume of air in the intake manifold, and "yes" this would make a performance difference becuase it increases air velocity!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you know anything about physics, then you would know that there is more volume of air in the intake manifold, and "yes" this would make a performance difference becuase it increases air velocity!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why does higher plenum volume correlate to higher air velocity?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why does higher plenum volume correlate to higher air velocity?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It doesn't! LOL

I guess he is the one that doesn't understand physics.

I am aware that the space would effectively increase the plenum volume by the displacement of the spacer is self which is so small it makes no difference at all!

You put it on a dyno without a spacer for 2 runs and then with a spacer for 2 runs and prove it does anything but waste money.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ho bag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It doesn't! LOL

I guess he is the one that doesn't understand physics.

I am aware that the space would effectively increase the plenum volume by the displacement of the spacer is self which is so small it makes no difference at all!

You put it on a dyno without a spacer for 2 runs and then with a spacer for 2 runs and prove it does anything but waste money.</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha yeah I know. I wanted to hear his response to get a good laugh, but oh well.

Also, fuel mileage changes depending on your driving style, weather, the trips you take, etc., so a 1-2mpg difference is pretty much negligible.

 

the only thing that I've seen with these are some throttle body spacers offset the angle the throttle body mounts to the manifold. This lets the air flow in and hit the 'back' of the intake plenum. The whole idea is that the fourth cylinder on our cars runs a little bit leaner than the others and this helps compensate. I think (don't quote me on this) edelbrock incorporates this design into either their spacers or manifolds. I have heard of small power gains from this on high hp setups.

disclaimer: ^^^This is only what I have heard and thought you guys might find the idea interesting. I personally have no experience with TB spacers.

EDIT: and to the OP, I did some research on this before and in the scope of cash per horsepower gained it's a waste of money. I personally chose not to get one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone who paid more than $40 for a spacer is an idiot.

Unless you have one installed, don't speak what you don't know. I have one, my girl has one (Integra LS), and we both have positive results. If you know anything about physics, then you would know that there is more volume of air in the intake manifold, and "yes" this would make a performance difference becuase it increases air velocity!</TD></TR></TABLE>

i was in high school and was quite the n00b lol.

 

instead put a ls tb

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why does higher plenum volume correlate to higher air velocity?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would've answered you yesterday, but I used all of my posting's on useful people...but to answer your question, which you've already answered...WHY? Because the air has to go somewhere, you can't have more air volume, and expect it to go no where...I suppose if you put you engine together it would leak out your gaskets because you forgot to tighten the bolts, but that's about the only reason you would not see any gains...BTW you do not have one?...but you know so much about how they work, amazing how wisdom grows on intake manifolds these days!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, fuel mileage changes depending on your driving style, weather, the trips you take, etc., so a 1-2mpg difference is pretty much negligible.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So what you're saying is if you drive like a retard, by doing burnouts at every stop light you won't get better gas mileage???? I don't understand???? You are a moron to think that isn't obvious. Did you also know that if it is colder out, no matter how you drive you get worse gas mileage because the density of cold air requires more fuel to reach a stoich level.....tool.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DCSportEJ1Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was in high school and was quite the n00b lol.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It would appear that you still haven't left high school, due to you level of arguement. If anyone who reads this post thinks highly of either you or triple ddd ****, then I would suggest they re think their opinion of you. Clearly you are not here to help people and it is very obvious that you have no experience what so ever with throttle body spacers, so I wouldn't continue your "high school" education of Honda's and move the F on.

Just to throw this out there, an LS motor would never be able to produce the mileage any, and I mean any D series motor can. If all you think about is horsepower, then you should have never made any comments in the first place. I believe I specifically stated that it only increased my mid-range power, not horsepower, but acceleration.....again tool. So say what you want, but don't talk **** when you have no experience...and by the way I graduated in 1997....So high school was quite a while ago.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but to answer your question, which you've already answered...WHY? Because the air has to go somewhere, you can't have more air volume, and expect it to go no where..</TD></TR></TABLE>
A throttle body spacer will not increase the engine's flow rate. Let's say your intake piping was doubled in length. It's volume would be doubled, but would the air move twice as fast?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what you're saying is if you drive like a retard, by doing burnouts at every stop light you won't get better gas mileage???? I don't understand???? You are a moron to think that isn't obvious. Did you also know that if it is colder out, no matter how you drive you get worse gas mileage because the density of cold air requires more fuel to reach a stoich level.....tool.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you knew all this, then why did you tell us that you realized a 1-2mpg gain?

...tool.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe I specifically stated that it only increased my mid-range power, not horsepower, but acceleration.....again tool.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So mid-range power is not power?

 

Doubling intake piping will not double the volume of air in the "intake manifold" nor does it allow "more" air into the engine, so I disagree. Again physics will prove that you will most likely loose horsepower due to the fact that you are trying to move a larger amount of air to the throttle body which is more work for the intake system.

...and so on, I did not "REALIZE" I was getting better gas mileage....I actually got better gas mileage. I have the pictures to prove the mileage, and pictures to show how many gallons I was putting in on a fill up. As far as the 1 - 2 miles that is an average, when I baby the car I get almost 5 MPG more... so obviously that varies with driving habits. I drive normal, sorry for those who drive like maniacs. I guess maybe you should think about what you were looking to get out me for an answer.

Mid-range power is a term genrally used to determine an acceleration rate. I have not dynoed my car before and after with just a throttle body spacer, but in my own words "I BELIEVE" that my acceleration factor has gone up in the mid RPM range....does that make any sense to you?

Finally I would like to note for the last time - If you don't not have experience with a product, then you have no wisdom to shed here.


Modified by chiefb26 at 2:23 PM 4/4/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would have to disagree.... I installed an airraid throttle spacer on my 94' Si (d15B swap), and I find I have much better mid range power, plus it gives me another 1 - 2 miles to the gallon in general driving.</TD></TR></TABLE>

show some proof chief other than your but dyno

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doubling intake piping will not double the volume of air in the "intake manifold" nor does it allow "more" air into the engine, so I disagree. Again physics will prove that you will most likely loose horsepower due to the fact that you are trying to move a larger amount of air to the throttle body which is more work for the intake system.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ok, let's take an arbitrary plenum. We increase the plenum volume, but the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet remains the same. The inlet and oulet diameter remain the same. You're saying that the increase in volume corresponds to a higher air velocity through the plenum?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mid-range power is a term genrally used to determine an acceleration rate. I have not dynoed my car before and after with just a throttle body spacer, but in my own words "I BELIEVE" that my acceleration factor has gone up in the mid RPM range....does that make any sense to you?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree that power and acceleration are related, but they measure different things. Power is power, acceleration is acceleration. Saying "it only increased my mid-range power, not horsepower, but acceleration" doesn't really make sense.

As stated above, if you believe that your acceleration "factor" has improved during a certain range of engine speeds, it does not mean the car is actually quicker. You will have to verify the power increase on a dyno or produce time slips that show consistent improvement.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chiefb26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finally I would like to note for the last time - If you don't not have experience with a product, then you have no wisdom to shed here.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Buying and installing a product does not make you an expert. I built the computer I'm using right now, but I have absolutely no idea how the circuits work.

 

I have installed, more than one of these spacers, on more than two different model cars, and motors. Each result is different. I never claimed that I was an expert on the product, but I know that I have the knowledge (gained from experience) that the product works, and it works well.

And to further this arguement, YES I am stating that with a larger volume of air in the intake manifold the air will be required to move faster, due to the MAP sensor. When the spacer plate goes in the plenum volume pressure will drop with the added space to fill. The computer should correct the air flow to meet the oem pressure, which will require moving the air faster through the manifold to keep the pressure level up to an "OEM" level.

Power and acceleration are related, we do actually agree on something. I do disagree that you need to have more power for better acceleration. Tranmission gearing will often determine how your acceleration in fact relates to power output. If you have long gears you have slow acceleration, right?? I can tell you that my DX transmission has long gears and my Si has close gears. My Si has more power, and to compare the two we'll use 2nd gear to be relative. My DX will not accelerate as quickly, but it will go faster. If they both had the same power output, once again the DX would go faster, but the Si would still accelerate quicker. However, if you have more power it is obvious that you will have better acceleration, that was not the point I was making in this paragraph.

As far as posting some pictures, I will be more than happy to do that, when I am not at work, I can upload them. Apparently "noob" people on this site are not allowed to have a lot of priveledges, so I don't know how easy it is going to be to post pictures.

 

So how exactly does the computer "increase the air flow to meet the oem pressure"? Is there an electric air pump on my intake that I didn't know about? Oh wait, it's going to open the IACV more LOL.

You're not impressing anybody but yourself. You have no clue about how an engine works and you only make that more apparent the more you post.

Not only that, but so far, everyone has been fairly respectful to you and in response you're getting all hot headed and offensive.

Go buy the Tornado and have a ball.

 

I say just ignore him or report him or something.

He obviously has not idea how things work and his but dyno must be calibrated very well LOL.

If you wanna get technical about things:

Changing the plenum volume will not increase air flow through the tb at ALL EVER!!

You are changing the volume but you are not changing the air demands of the engine, and after all the engine is just an air pump. So regardless of how large your plenum is the demands of the motor are the same, the same amount of air is being drawn into the motor so there is no increase demand or flow or velocity!

If you wanna increase the velocity then run a smaller plenum and tb. It will kill power but hey the velocity will rise because the demand of the motor will exceed the flow of the manifold at a given vacuum and create more vacuum thus increasing velocity.

Son you need to go read a book or something because you no where near as smart as you are pretending to be.

 

Thus you all prove my point!

Not one person here has any experience with these, so how can you speak of them. Aside from that, question my intelligence, it's only a matter of opinion, I know what my I.Q. is.

And as for being respectful, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, has been hardly respectful, let alone the fact that they have absolutely no experience to prove their "hypothetical" physics!

In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of position. It is a vector physical quantity; both speed and direction are required to define it. In the SI (metric) system, it is measured in metres per second: (m/s) or ms-1. The scalar absolute value (magnitude) of velocity is speed. For example, "5 metres per second" is a scalar and not a vector, whereas "5 metres per second east" is a vector. The average velocity v of an object moving through a displacement during a time interval (Δt) is described by the formula:


The rate of change of velocity is referred to as acceleration.

This brings me back to the MAP sensor. The "Plenum" is nothing more than a vacuum.

A vacuum is a volume of space that is essentially empty of matter, such that its gaseous pressure is much less than atmospheric pressure. The word comes from the Latin term for "empty," but in reality, no volume of space can ever be perfectly empty. A perfect vacuum with a gaseous pressure of absolute zero is a philosophical concept that is never observed in practice. Physicists often use the term "vacuum" to discuss ideal test results that would occur in a perfect vacuum, which they simply call "vacuum" or "free space" in this context, and use the term partial vacuum to refer to the imperfect vacuo realized in practice. The Latin term in vacuo is also used to describe an object as being in what would otherwise be a vacuum.

The quality of a vacuum refers to how closely it approaches a perfect vacuum.

The residual gas pressure is the primary indicator of quality, and is most commonly measured in units called torr, even in metric contexts. Lower pressures indicate higher quality, although other variables must also be taken into account. Quantum theory sets limits for the best possible quality of vacuum, predicting that no volume of space can be perfectly empty. Outer space is a natural high quality vacuum, mostly of much higher quality than what can be created artificially with current technology. Low quality artificial vacuums have been used for suction for millennia.

The design and orientation of the intake manifold is a major factor in the volumetric efficiency of an engine. High performing manifolds contain smooth contours and transitions between different segments. Manifolds that are restrictive and contain abrupt changes in contour produce pressure drops at these points. This reduction in manifold pressure results in less air (and fuel) actually entering the combustion chamber.

Modern intake manifolds usually contain intake runners. These are individual tubes extending to each intake port on the cylinder head. The purpose of the intake runner is to take advantage of the rarefaction pulse generated by closing the intake valve. When the valve is open, air is flowing through the valve at considerable speed. When this valve closes the air that has not yet entered the valve still has a lot of momentum and compresses against the valve, creating a pocket of high pressure air. This high pressure air begins to equalize with the lower pressure air in the manifold. This reduction of density at the end of the runner is what generates the rarefaction pulse. This pulse travels at the speed of sound, and in most intakes travels up and down the intake runner many times before the valve opens again.

Some naturally aspirated intake systems operate at a volumetric efficiency above 100%. In other words the air pressure in the combustion chamber, before the compression stroke is greater than the atmospheric pressure. Some mechanics quickly dismiss this as impossible and a violation of the law of conservation of energy. It is important to understand that the additional energy required to compress the air above atmospheric pressure comes from the momentum of the piston. And as a result of adding the intake spacer, we have thus generated a larger volume of air mass at the end runner, and will generate more rarefaction pulses.

So to anyone that questions my knowledge, **** off. I retract my membership. I wish to have no affilition with YAHOO [freak]ING CHATTERS!




Modified by chiefb26 at 4:27 PM 4/5/2008

 

Much of your posts have little relevance. You have told us how transmission gearing affects acceleration, but we never once questioned nor denied that. You have explained simple kinematics to us, but we never once asked about it. You have done the same with a vacuum, VE, and an intake manifold. Also, a VE greater than 100% is entirely possible, and any mechanic that dismisses this on the basis that it's a violation of the Law of Conversation of Energy should find another job.

As far as the relevant part of your last post (which is an astounding one sentence): so not only does an intake spacer increase velocity, but it generates more rarefraction pulses?


I also can cite random facts. However, I think mine are more relevant to this particular application:

(1/2)ρv^2 + ρgh + p = (1/2)ρv^2 + ρgh + p
ρ = density
v = velocity
g = acceleration due to gravity
h = height
p = pressure

Q=Av
Q = volumetric flow rate
A = cross-sectional area
v = velocity

By the way, we aren't stupid. Did you, by any chance, have some help writing that?
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Vacuum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...ring)

The paragraphs in these pages are very similar to yours. It's very obvious that this isn't original material, especially since your "concluding" sentence has absolutely no transition leading up to it. Please keep in mind that we value quality over quantity here.

 

It just goes to show that I know how to use resources....WOW....shockingly enough so can YAHOO spammer's like yourself. Good for you! Now why don't you apply your "mad" skillz to the computer again, and do some research on the topic....that's why I posted it tool.

This is my last post, I am withdrawling my account, there is clearly no one hear who wants help, or who can give it. Thanks for nothing, and don't expect me to send anyone to this site for help!

 

LOL if there friends of yours i dont think we want them here anyway.

$20 says you can resist posting again to cause more ****....No editing previous post either.