I have a 91 CRX-HF with a D15B6 motor (186,000 miles), with manual 5speed, all stock, no mods. Before the test i changed spark plugs and oil filter/oil, and also had a new muffler installed (old one was rusted thru). The car was running on cheap gas (87octane) and more than likely not very warmed up during the test (i left the car at the gas station parked in the shade and they tested it whenever they finally got around to it).

BTW- i did not see the test, so im not sure if it was done via a "sniffer" or on a rolling dyno, or both (if that's even possible).


test results:

15mph: limit/reading/result
HC: 183-64-passed
CO: 0.73-0.66-passed
NO: 2400-1228-passed
RPM: bypass
Dilution: 14.8

25mph: limit/reading/result
HC: 200-214-FAIL
CO: 1.07-6.25-FAIL
NO: 2333-252-passed
RPM: bypass
Dilution: 16.6

It also passed the "Visible Smoke Detection" test, as well as all of the "Emissions Control Systems Inpsection" criteria (pos. crankcase vent. sys, catalytic converter, fuel evaporative sys. ALL PASSED).


So after i pay the clerk i am told that the inspector wants to talk to me. I find him and he says that the car is running rich and that for 60$ labor he could change the O2 sensor. I had some problems passing emissions with a 90 Prelude Si a while back and had to replace both O2 sensors on it myself, so i knew his quote was high for the 5 minutes of work. COnsequently it made me suspicious of his diagnosis altogether, in that he seemed all too sure that it was the sensor and nothing else. BTW-there is no O2 warning light on in the dash cluster, but i have not checked the ECU to see if its throwing any kind of code (though i seriously doubt that it is).

ANyway, i was wondering (based on my test results) what you guys would suggest. I have spent over 6 hours searching and reading the forum on everything from O2 sensors to catalytic converters, denatured alcohol, mystery marvel oil, retarding the timing, etc. Im not a complete noob to working on my car(s), BUT i DONT know how to change the timing or do any major repairs that require specialized tools.

With that in mind, where should i start? And out of curiosity, does my rex have 1 or 2 oxygen sensors? Also, is it possible the above test is wrong about my catalytic converter "passing"?


any help/advice would be greatly appreciated,
thanx.


Modified by D15B666 at 3:02 AM 7/2/2006


Modified by D15B666 at 3:05 AM 7/2/2006


Modified by D15B666 at 3:28 AM 7/2/2006


Modified by D15B666 at 3:48 AM 7/2/2006

 

Im no smog tech but i have taken an emissions course before. I bet that changing your O2 (your car has 1 single wire O2) wouldn't hurt, but to me it seems that if it was malfunctioning, you would have failed the 15mph test as well. Who knows though, thats just my guess.

Slapping a new catalytic converter on there would probably get you to pass, but thats not really fixing the problem...

 

thanx fourthgenhatchB17 for your reply. I am hoping to avoid putting a new CAT, unless i HAVE to (as a final resort).

here is the thing i was hoping someone could help me understand:

in 25mph results, the CO reading is 6.25, where as during the 15mph it was only at 0.66. I have read all over this and other forums and i have yet to see anyone posting such a disproportionate and high reading (6.25). Can anyone tell me if it makes sense for the reading to be so crazy high?

Also, i was thinking about a way to cheat the test using the denatured alcohol method. Can anyone tell me exactly (step-by-step) how to go about doing that?

thanx

 

High CO usually means too much fuel. High HCs are usually unburned fuel.

You were close to the limit on CO at 15 mph, and well over at 25 MPH. Sounds like a rich mixture to me. A quick O2 sensor replacement might very well be enough to get it to pass, though with that kind of richness maybe not.

Silly question: Do you have an aftermarket FPR on the car? If so, either set it the way the stock one is, or replace it with stock. Having the fuel pressure go higher than is "appropriate" during the 25 MPH test would definitely send the mixture quite rich.

--DD

 

thanx Dave.

As far as the FPR goes, mine is stock and i havent messed with it. But thanx for the mention, i didnt actually know what an FPR was at first, but spent the better part of 2 hours searching and reading up on it.

I was working on changing the O2 sensor, but i hit a snag cuz i didnt have a socket that would fit over it. I saw one for sale at CarQuest for 16.75, but i thought that was too much, cuz i figured i would rent one from AutoZone, but after calling them- they said that it would cost $15! Just to rent it! No way i am paying 15 to rent it, but CarQuest closed at 7pm.

As a result i ended up without a tool to take it off with. But i changed the PCV valve (old one had a bunch of oil ****ed up in it), and the distributor cap and rotor (old ones showed a lot of blue crust). I will get the O2 sensor done tomorrow, once i BUY the socket.

BTW- anyone know if CarQuest's parts are any good? Everything i am replacing came from there, so i hope they are of at least average quality.

and anyone know if i should still bother adding something to the fuel to help pass the test?

 

About the O2 sensor socket/tool. I've alwayd had good luck using a flare wrench (sometimes called a line wrench). Sears has them and i bet it costs less than 15$. Im too lazy to go outside to check the size but if u need me to i can. Its something like 1" ??

 

It is unusual that you passed the 15 and not the 25. Unless there are different loads applied where you are at. In CA the 15 is at 50% load of the cars weight and 25% at 25.

You are rich going by the HC level and the CO is bad combustion. I wish there was an RPM reading so I could see if he dogged the motor down.

An easy to check the FPR is to pull off the vacuum line and see if it is dry.
Could very well be the O2 sensor they can slow down the response time without setting a code.
It is good that you replaced the cap and rotor as this could cause bad combustion.

The other thing I can think of is a stuck/clogged injector which could cause a rich misfire and would result as a high HC and CO.
Keep running the 87 octane and don't use an additive unless you run it thru then do the test.

Hey, Something else, is there an EGR on your motor? You might have a bad egr valve, it could be plugged or stuck open causing a misfire. There are a few steps in checking the EGR out. let us know. and yes I am a smog tech.

 

why was the rpm bypassed it doesn't make sense you passed in the 15mph and failed the 25 mph. Also do you have any holes in the exhaust system. This is what i would do. a new fuel filter also go drive it hard before you take it back for you reispection for 20 miles or so. it helps break up the carbon and other junk that sits in the motor when it sits for a long time period.If you know someone in your town that does inpections ask them to do a training inpection have them to it that way. In traning mode it will do the test and you will not be charged. then take it back for your reinspection. if you lived around dallas texas i would do it for you.

 

what you can also do is call the local dps office and have tell them what happened and they can go see if the dyno in cablirated right. also did they have fan on it in texas we are to use a 3000cfm fan on every asm we do. if you dont have the fan on it can cause high nox and co ho numbers

 

thanx man! but i got back to the forum too late to check out that option. I went ahead and bought the carquest one, and of course i ended up having some trouble. The problem was that the old sensor didnt wanna budge, and because the socket has an open side, it would keep slipping around the nut. I was tempted to knock the end of the sensor and then use a regular socket to do it but instead i improvised by using a hose clamp to keep the socket tight. some pics:

socket with hose clamp


old sensor:




new sensor in place:


WHY indeed! Seems shady to me. Maybe he did dog the motor and that would explain the crazy high numbers and the BYPASS on the test. Of course im no expert and i dont have another emissions inspection to compare it too, so i wasnt sure if bypassing was normal or unusual. But it caught my eye. That and the fact the dude hit me up for the O2 replacement. He didnt simply recommend replacing it, he recommended THEY (at that shop) do it for 60 bucks. I saw him (the inspector again) and asked him if he is SURE that replacing the O2 sensor will fix it, and he said yes he was sure. So now he is bound by his own words. I replaced the sensor, and the car HAS TO pass. The thing is, i am regular customer at this gas station, i dont go anywhere else for my cigs or gas. And for years i have brought many cars there for safety/emissions inspections. So i would like to think they wouldnt try to jack me, since A-they get my business and B-because they know i know some car ****.


MONSTER- there are no holes in any of the exhaust, and i am definitely considering changing the fuel filter. My next plan of attack was to spray the opening to the intake clean, and change the air filter. I might go ahead and add a fuel filter to that list, but are there any other "cheap" things i could/should replace? I have already spent over a hundred bucks so far, and though i KNOW its money well spent, im running out of it.


SMOGMAN- which vacuum line on the FPR are you referring to? Below are some pics of my engine, maybe you could point it out to me. I do have an EGR (91HF)but i dont think its acting up. I did search and found some good info on how to clean the EGR valve, but any words of caution or advice you offer would be appreciated. I was thinking of taking it off and cleaning it, but i have learned the hard way that IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT! I swear to ya i have had some bad luck with breeaking bolts and stripping **** because my hands are too brutish.

Overall, my idle is smooth, much smoother infact after each set of things i have replaced thus far. The distributor and rotor made a huge difference, the old ones were garbage. And though i only went to the video store and back tonite after putting in the new O2 sensor, the idle once again seem much improved. Just so you know the car seemed fine to me before the test, no smoke, no gas smell. I knew it could use a tune-up but didnt think it was in dire need of it.


PICS of the engine:







Hey here are some pics of the OLD spark plugs i replaced. Your analysis of them would be both very enlightening and much appreciated:

BTW- unfortunately i didnt think to mark which cylinder each one came from so here they are in no particular order. Also, one of the four is BENT! Problem is when i was changing them a couple of the old ones hit the ground, so im not sure if this plug is bent due to the fall, or from contact inside the engine. SO i lean on your expertise for analysis:

PLUGS:










Hey- once again i thank all of you who have taken the time to help me out. I was starting to feel like i wasnt gonna get much direct help here since im a noob and all, so im extra glad that some you of shared your knowledge. Thanx.

 

it just doesn't make since on why he didn't hook up the rpm reader it just hooks onto a spark plug wire. It sounds like he was just being lazy. Call you local dps office and ask to speak with someone about inspections. ask them what the process of the inspection is in your city. It sounds like your not the only one thats had problems with this station.

 

I dont see how he could do a test with the rpms bypass. The computer requires RPM reading in order to run a test otherwise it wouldnt run.
I dont think I ever performed a test with no RPM readings. for OBD1 you have 2 tools one that hooks to the SP wire and another that you hang on the front windshield like an antenna and it picks up the coil pack readings. For OBD2 you just hook up the diagnostic wire.

As far as your Rich running condition you could have a coule things. Air leaks in the intake system or exhaust system before the o2 sensor. Its gonna tell your ecu that oh im running to LEAN so im going to richen the fuel mixture up and thats how you get a rich running condition.
Or your O2 was possible failing and took a dump while the test was being performed. There is a way to test te O2 but you'd need a multimeter with oscilloscope reading and propane.

but good luck hope the o2 fixs it. But If you have leaks it'll ruin the o2 again.

 

at 15 mphs you should be in first gear at 1300-1500rpms.

at 25 mphs you should be in 3rd gear at 1300-1500rpms. On some car you can run it on 2nd gear but that would usually be done on 4spd cars.

If you ran 25mphs in 2nd gear you'll be hitting 3000rpms.

So if he did bypass the rpms and ran the 25mphs at 3000rpms that would probably explain the high jump in HC, CO. But also looks like ur running really lean causing the motor to misfire.

HC = misfire/raw fuel/unburn fuel
CO = misfire/bad combustion/lean mixture

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NVS_RSX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont see how he could do a test with the rpms bypass. The computer requires RPM reading in order to run a test otherwise it wouldnt run.
I dont think I ever performed a test with no RPM readings. for OBD1 you have 2 tools one that hooks to the SP wire and another that you hang on the front windshield like an antenna and it picks up the coil pack readings. For OBD2 you just hook up the diagnostic wire.

As far as your Rich running condition you could have a coule things. Air leaks in the intake system or exhaust system before the o2 sensor. Its gonna tell your ecu that oh im running to LEAN so im going to richen the fuel mixture up and thats how you get a rich running condition.
Or your O2 was possible failing and took a dump while the test was being performed. There is a way to test te O2 but you'd need a multimeter with oscilloscope reading and propane.

but good luck hope the o2 fixs it. But If you have leaks it'll ruin the o2 again.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I totally forgot about that he could have ran the both test in the same gear. we do 2nd for the 15mph test and 3rd for the 25 mph test. My dps tech will let us have 1 rpm bypass for every 100 cars we inspections on. On some of the new saturns the computer (esp machine )cant talk to the ecu though the obd port and the screen says something like take it to a shop with the dyno. and when you put it on the dyno you can't get a rpm reading no matter what you do.

 

Your plugs look fine to me. The bent one is probably due to you dropping it like u said. If it was like that before u dropped it, then your motor would have serious problems and wouldnt be running good at all!! Your smog numbers would have been through the roof. So again, it was b/c u dropped it.




Look under the "PGM-FI programmed fuel injection" decal and see the single large hose, along with the 2 smaller hoses side by side? The FPR line is the one furthest to the right (one of the smaller lines).

 

so i havent gotten a chance to do anything the last few days and my 14 days (for a free re-test) will be up on Saturday. Im probably not gonna get a chance to change the fuel filter before the test, but i do intend to still change the air filter and spray the intake a lil bit.

anyhow, i was looking to compare some numbers just to get a sense for what they should look like, so i dug up my girlfriend's and my dad's emissions tests.

instead of helping, they ended confusing me even more. first here is a copy of my test results:



Now here is my girl's (2002 Civic 4dr):




Her test was done on the same machine by the same guy. But all i see are N/A's, so what gives? Is that normal, or did he just pass her without running any tests? Her car is fairly new so it probably would have passed with no problem, but becuz there are no numbers posted, it didnt help me any.


then there is my dad's extended cab Ford Truck (6cyl-5speed-4x4). His test was done at a different station by a different guy:



?! WTF? Is that normal? 0.00? Is that possible? That makes my 6.25 result seem even more disproportionate than before.

Can any of you guys give me some insight in to those test results, please?


BTW- regarding RPM's and gears, my car is a 5 speed, but i get up to 30mph comfortably in only 2nd gear (near 3800 rpms). To do 25mph (for the test) in 3rd would probably not work very well, so i dont know.

Personally thats one of the things i have liked least about my CRX, the gear ratio. Even on the highway i am usually in 4th doing 65mph. When i put it in 5th at that speed, there is no torque left. I press the accelerator and its useless until the engine "catches up" so to speak. To go into 5th i have to get a good head of steam and press 4th into the higher rpms so that i can actually keep gaining speed in 5th. Its the same with 3rd gear, i have to get pretty high into 2nd before there is a "natural" transition into 3rd.

thanks again for the help, and thanx FOURTHGEN for the spark plug analysis. I should be heading in for the test tomorrow so i got my fingers crossed that the improvements i made will make the needed difference. AND this time i will be present during the test to be sure ther aint funny business goin on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MONSTERZC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I totally forgot about that he could have ran the both test in the same gear. we do 2nd for the 15mph test and 3rd for the 25 mph test. My dps tech will let us have 1 rpm bypass for every 100 cars we inspections on. On some of the new saturns the computer (esp machine )cant talk to the ecu though the obd port and the screen says something like take it to a shop with the dyno. and when you put it on the dyno you can't get a rpm reading no matter what you do.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You know what I made a mistake you do run 15mphs at 2nd gear not 1st gear. Then you rev it up to 25mphs and shift to 3rd.

D15B666:

0.00 is very possible. A lot of the newer cars 2000 and up usually gets that kind of readings or close to it. The ones that dont require smog yet dont even have #'s for them thats why you get N/A.

Im pretty sure you drop that old plug theres no way you could have drove your car with that plug bent like that and not notice a misfire.

Also you know what sucks theres no CO2 readings. That would really help to see if your running to lean or too rich. But looks like you have a lean condition making the car run RICH. Since your HC is really high. O2 sensor can play a major role if its being lazy. Just make sure you test it or if its not to much $$$ then replace it yourself and retest.

 

The readings from your girlfriends car are n/a because all virginia does to check OBD2 vehicles is hook up the machine to the diagnostic port. They dont actually do a "sniffer test" on OBD2 vehicles. Your car and your dads truck are both OBD1 or below. I would just go get your re-test, you would probably pass. You could also try seafoam. Do a search for a step by step on using it, it cleans your motor out pretty good.

 

A quick note on Autozone tools...it's not $15 to rent the tool. That's a deposit. If you return the tool in an unmangled state, you get your money back.

And $60 to replace an o2 sensor is not unreasonable. Yes its cheaper to do it yourself, but I don't know what auto repair isn't. You've got $20-35 in a new o2 sensor and $10-15 in an o2 sensor tool plus at least 30 minutes of your time in the car plus whatever you time you've spent doing research. $60 to make this problem go away sounds pretty fair at this point.

 

Ok, I got a lot for you.

CO is bad combustion Can be anything from vacuum leak to tune-up, leaking EGR valve or stuck open EGR, even old gas will do it! Or an egr that is getting vacuum all the time. Can be also plugged egr ports into the IM.

Normal is 0.0 to 0.5 for a CO reading.

On a 1.5ltr motor Or on any motor I have to keep it in a range from 1500rpm to 2800rpm in CA. So you see it depends on the tranny.On my 88 SI it is second @ 15 and third@25. Automatics are in drive without O/D.

I can not do a smogtest without the rpm.

And the test report with 6.25CO... The EGR does not function at 15 usually. But at 25 it does. Check your EGR system. The control box on the back right of the motor compartment has a solenoid to control the EGR valve, check it. It goes bad on alot of Honda's. A clue would be rough running at this range only.

I think I got them all good luck.

 

I dont think the crx has EGR? unless you've done a lot then you probably know more

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Failed Emission Inspection 91 CRX-HF (Northern VA)</TD></TR></TABLE>

The HF had an EGR valve.

 

Look at the shinny piece on the first picture as you scroll back to the top.
Thats an EGR valve..

They came on 1.5's not 1.6's in the old years. But now they come on 1996 and up 1.6's
At least there was one on the one I just smogged. 2dr civic

 

I didn't know VA had emmisions.

 

get it tested when the engine is fully warmed up. An Hf model can take a while to actually warm up all the way. If you get off the highway and get it tested right away, you'll probably be fine.