i searched for a while and found many threads talking about this, but all of them lead to:

"Get a ProDrive gear" or "don't get a ProDrive gear because they break just as often or more than a honda gear".

but none of these threads really speak of how the oil pump gear is really damaged. I saw a few people say that they become damaged because of high rpms, but nothing is said about them being damaged due to high power levels.

I think i remember hearing that the Oaks Racing guys had oil pump problems several times, but why? did the gear break due to the excessive rpms they were running?........or did it break because the power of the engine was too great?

if so- is there some sort of threshold on what rpms or power level a stock honda pump can take before having to upgrade to some external dry sump system? the reason i ask is because i will tune my setup soon and make somewhere around mid 500's whp.....and i fear that my stock pump may not want to hold up with the car being daily driven and all.

that you know of- what is the most power an h22 has made with a stock pump and lasted?

 

Chris,
I remember seeing an article at Endyn's site about this.... I would get ytou the exact link, but I was two seconds from turning off my computer and going to bed....

http://www.theoldone.com

If nothing else, you can buy their modifield OEM pumps, or call and they will tell you what you want to know......

MIke

 

thanks man......i didn't realize endyn did that. that seems like a very reasonable price for a solution to this problem, as opposed to the dry sump external pump system.

here's what the link showed:



Modified engines require oiling systems that are up to the task of supplying lubrication in demanding high rpm applications.

Our oil pump modifications reduce pump cavitation at extreme engine speeds and increase output by reducing losses, netting more power at the crank. Each pump is machined to achieve minimum rotor to case clearances, by-pass valves are clearanced to prevent binding, inlet and outlet passages are bored to larger diameters, tapered, radiused, and back-filled.

We can supply new Honda oil pumps at very reasonable pricing.

Price of pump modifications is $135.00



anyone else have input?

 

I don't see how power output would have anything to do with oil pump failure unless you manage to stick a rod through the oil pump. High RPM is the only possible contributor to pump failure that makes any sense. There has also been some discussion about removed harmonic balancers causing oil pump failure. Anyway, you can mod your own oil pump if you want. The idea is to basically port the pump housing and make sure all the parts fit right and have correct tolerances. I have also heard of some people shimming the bypass with a washer or two to bump up the bypass pressure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't see how power output would have anything to do with oil pump failure </TD></TR></TABLE>

Harmonics. Crankshafts do not turn steady state - they are driven in pulses by the combustion reaction.

When you detonate, you have combustion pressure spikes 2-3 times higher than normal peak pressures. It jackhammers pistons, it jackhammers rods, it jackhammers the oil film seperating your upper rod bearing from the crankshaft, and at some point it makes it's way to the oil pump.

 

You can collapse a rod at TDC with a million pounds of pressure but I don't see what that has to do with the oil pump. This is like the theoretical arguments for why the UR crank pulleys cause oil pump failure.

 

Is there some sort of threshold on what rpms or power level a stock honda pump can take before having to upgrade to some external dry sump system? the reason i ask is because i will tune my setup soon and make somewhere around mid 500's whp.....and i fear that my stock pump may not want to hold up with the car being daily driven and all.

that you know of- what is the most power an h22 has made with a stock pump and lasted?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a mild H22 All-Motor Setup and my stock oil pump just took a crap on me. When the engine builder took it apart...he noticed that the head housing the cams and such was dryer than the saharah. Luckily it had just went bad while at the shop on a test. I was able to save my engine.

Do the pumps just tend to go or is there a limit to its capacity as far as power or high rpm levels as Chris indicated?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can collapse a rod at TDC with a million pounds of pressure but I don't see what that has to do with the oil pump. This is like the theoretical arguments </TD></TR></TABLE>



Lurk my post history, kid. There is very little that is the-o-rectal about applied redneck common sense.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Lurk my post history, kid. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Lurk mine. Flywheel inertia has more to do with crank harmonics than more pressure at TDC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Lurk my post history, kid. There is very little that is the-o-rectal about applied redneck common sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Lurk mine. Flywheel inertia has more to do with crank harmonics than more pressure at TDC.</TD></TR></TABLE>

boys, boys, calm down....though both arguments seem to be valid, flyrod has the idea

oh and also, J. Davis, high hp is not always directly correlated to high combustion chamber pressure, and detonation should not be a problem if your tune is clean....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Harmonics. Crankshafts do not turn steady state - they are driven in pulses by the combustion reaction.

When you detonate, you have combustion pressure spikes 2-3 times higher than normal peak pressures. It jackhammers pistons, it jackhammers rods, it jackhammers the oil film seperating your upper rod bearing from the crankshaft, and at some point it makes it's way to the oil pump.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

obviously with higher hp you will increase harmonics, but what actaully causes oil pump failure? the crank is not at a constant speed because each power stroke suddenly boosts crankshaft speed, so does that mean the oil pump can't handle the increases and decreases of crankshaft speed at higher horse power?

flyrod and you both make good points, but that question remains. If your answer is Harmonics then what benifit does endyns oil pump serve? if its the same oil pump just ported out then it should suffer form the same possibility of failure from increased harmonics. I suppose i can agree that a high horsepower motor will see much more crank torsion and vibration, so agian i ask what good would endyns unit be?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

boys, boys, calm down....though both arguments seem to be valid, flyrod has the idea

oh and also, J. Davis, high hp is not always directly correlated to high combustion chamber pressure, and detonation should not be a problem if your tune is clean....</TD></TR></TABLE>

matt the idea with detonation is it happens reguardless of the tune sometimes, bad gas, increased IATs, hot spots, it can happen and can cause alot of damage. I can only guess as to why the Oil pump will actually fail , im not an ME but it could just come down to the strength of the material or it could be harmonics, or nothing at all.

j.davis if your argument remains harmonics then could a fluid damper help the problem?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Flywheel inertia has more to do with crank harmonics than more pressure at TDC.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Flywheel inertia abrogates the problem, but does not completely bypass it. Examine the reason for CKF sensor on OBD2, and the manner in which it is used by the ECU. Point made? I have as much ME under my belt as EE, although people associate me with the latter. I've also degrees in machining/CNC, and worked in a machine shop, and dealt with completely incompetent ME's. Book learning is great, but if you cannot apply it as redneck common sense it does absolutely nothing outside of internet pissing matches.

"More pressure at TDC" is not what drives the upper rod bearing into the crank. Detonation does, and depending on what is going on it's more likely to happen closer to ideal rod angles, but not qui-ite at those angles it. Welcome to the real world.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">boys, boys, calm down....though both arguments seem to be valid, flyrod has the idea</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, I agree with him about rpms, but there is more going on here. New OEM H22 oil pumps fail on engines making 300+ whp, never revved past 7K - one is sitting 30 yards from me right now. Three cheers for stock fuel pumps, and people who won't listen to their tuenarboi, because they know how to use a boost controller and that is all that matters.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">oh and also, J. Davis, high hp is not always directly correlated to high combustion chamber pressure, and detonation should not be a problem if your tune is clean....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Detonation = momentary spikes in peak chamber pressure of 3X - it is di-rectally related to combustion chamber pressure. If you mean to infer slow/****** NA cars that use high rpms to turn mediocre torque into "high" horsepower readings, NA engines are prone to significant spikes in chamber pressures that are not found in a forced induction engine "if your tune is clean" [sic].

FYI, please keep in mind that the generally accepted body of knowledge most people operate on is based on opinions formed by idiots (you don't have to be a tuner to be an idiot). Turbo D16 guys are a good example of this, from them we (ok, everybody other than me) derive that a well tuned stock block D16 loses reliability around the 225 whp range. Yet, most of these guys are feeding them 4-14 degrees too much ignition timing and claiming that the coolant purging into the reservior + blown headgaskets is the fault of stock/poorly designed headgasket/headstuds.

Please note these excessive combustion pressures - in the whopping 180 to 225whp range - are not happening at TDC. TDC has nothing to do with detonation on an engine that is running strong enough to mask the fact that (high freq) detonation is taking place, aside from being a frame of refferrence.

Fact of the matter is, F/H have issues with their pumps, more so than B, or even other bottom oillers like D-series (Y8 is interesting, though). It is more than just rpms coming home here. While the design is at fault, you can massage the factors that take out a weak pump.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you mean to infer slow/****** NA cars that use high rpms to turn mediocre torque into "high" horsepower readings</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mature. Apples and oranges man, that was in no way necessary nor appropriate.

Because of your relative proximity to me (Raleigh) I'm wondering if you did this ME and EE stuff at NCSU, because thats what I'm in the process of and wouldn't mind a bit of knowledge from your hindsight if you would be willing to share.

I never said that detonation was not related to cc pressure, if you go back and read, I said that high hp is not directly related to cc pressure in all cases. And since hp was the variable of interest here, not detonation, I pointed out that you guys were arguing out on a tangent.

You seem to know your motors and have experience with these pumps and their problems, and despite my narrow scope of experience, I'm not going to argue with you over something you seem to be quite educated on.

And whats your obsession with this term <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">redneck common sense</TD></TR></TABLE>??

 

I dont remember where I saw it but it was an issue of bad manufacturing techniques. Alot of it had to do with the sharp edges and burrs on the oil pump gear that would wear the aluminum housing causing excess clearances.

The other issue was people putting the wrong oil in. The pump was designed for 5w-30 and has built in clearances to allow for it. When thicker oil is put in that won't compress as much and it stretches and pushes the housing until the gears are too loose and it just tears itself up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
While the design is at fault, you can massage the factors that take out a weak pump.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sooo are you saying that mods can be mde to the existing pump to make it less prone to failure? please explain as this was the purpose of this thread..

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rosko &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont remember where I saw it but it was an issue of bad manufacturing techniques. Alot of it had to do with the sharp edges and burrs on the oil pump gear that would wear the aluminum housing causing excess clearances.

The other issue was people putting the wrong oil in. The pump was designed for 5w-30 and has built in clearances to allow for it. When thicker oil is put in that won't compress as much and it stretches and pushes the housing until the gears are too loose and it just tears itself up.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

interesting, wonder if you can look around and see if you can find a orginal article..

 

ive noticed that most of the h22 oil pumps ive seen break was usually when a slick was put on a car and dry hopped i could go on a dyno and make xxx whp at xx amount of boost and beat it till it red with no probs for a year once the slick goes on its a wrap i have a wet sump on the car know and see if anything changes

 

when an oil pump malfunctions due to "dry hopping" must you replace the whole pump or just the gear?

 

Wouldn't life be great if we could all race with external pumps? NOPI made an exception with the engine diaper, but NHRA has not allowed them yet in the sportsman classes. This is why we removed our Dry sump and went with a circuit worx oil pump gear this year. We changed to the dry sump in 2005. Racing in 2003 we were at 510 whp and in 2004 with 590 whp we never broke an oil pump gear.
To be safe we decided to run the circuit worx gear over the stock application.

Harmonics is the issue with very high rmps &gt;11,000 the shatter into many small pieces.

good luck guys - we will have a better read on the abilities of the internal oil pump gear after this season. The power is much higher this year.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by UpShift &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when an oil pump malfunctions due to "dry hopping" must you replace the whole pump or just the gear? </TD></TR></TABLE>

replacing the whole pump will be just one of the things you will be changing when the gear breaks it pumps small peices of scrap metal through your motor

 

OH NO! thats bad news. you would be able to see the metal in the oil pan right? thanks for the info h22civic.

 

you will see and know about it

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by connvict &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

http://www.theoldone.com

If nothing else, you can buy their modifield OEM pumps, or call and they will tell you what you want to know......

MIke</TD></TR></TABLE>

i run this