Br1anPham

The motor Build:

D16Y8 Block:
D16a1 P29 75.5mm pistons (=12.7ish:1 compression ratio)
ARP fastened (rod bolts and head studs)
D16Y8 Head:
D16z6 Crower Stage 3 Cam
AEM Cam Gear (Advanced to 5.5 degrees) to compansate for the Z6 cam and resurance head and block)
Supertech Valvetrain
Boltons:
Short Ram intake
Edelbrock Performer X intake manifold
Bisimoto header
Stock Cat
Stock exhaust


Head resurface 2 times; amount of matieral taken off: unknown.
Block resurface 1 time; amount of material taken off: unknown.

After the build, cam timing was toyed with to get te car to idle correct (wrong cam in wrong motor).
Car now runs a slightly modified P28 Basemap tuned with uberdata. Wideband says AFR is at a pretty constant 13.3 to 13.9 at partial throttle.


Problems:
Car detonates under medium and high load under low RPM (mainly 1800 to 3500 when throttle about half down). Does not detonate at WOT (it might but the intake is too loud so i might not be able to hear it) and aside from that, the motor has not seen WOT more then 2 or 3 times.


I have attempted to add fuel, all the way up to 10:1 AFR, the car runs a lot rougher with so much fuel.

I have attempted to retard massize amounts of timing to try to get rid of timing. Timing was retarded so much the car started to bog, but would still detonate slightly under load.

I have done some research and some say that the D16y8 runs a completely different kind of timing map then a D16z6 did. But the only D16y8 bin i have found looks kind of funky. Can someone confirm this is the correct bin for a stock D16y8?



If this is the correct bin, why is the ignition timing for a healthy idle at 750-850 rpm and 20'' HG vacuum, so high? Manual says D16y8 base timing reads 12 degrees, on the bin it reads well over 20 degrees?


My ultimate goal is to make this car drivable without detonation with 91 octane. Please give me any tuning advice if possible.

Worst comes to worst, i can mix my gasoline with 100 octane during every fuel up, WHICH I DO NOT WISH TO DO IF THERE IS A WAY TO TUNE THIS MOTOR ON 91 OCTANE.

EDIT!: (Also posted on page 2, but i post it hear so you guys dont have to re-read the whole discussion)

OKAY!

Changes:

310cc Injectors.
Testpipe.
New base map.

modified P2P map:
Reduce injectors duration due to bigger injectors.
Pulled the distributor all the way retarded. (just incase)
Did air fuel ratio tuning at partial throttle.


Car Runs:
With the test pipe, my exhaust sounds really gay and loud. I dont think im detonateing but i cant really tell since my car sounds like a angry bumble bee on crack. Im about 65% sure its not detonating though, i tried my best to listening for any pinging. So I'm not sure what was causing me to detonate so much, all i changed was the injectors and the base map. Either i had a faulty stock injector, OR the D16y8 map really helped the motor out.

The car at first ran real boggy in partial and WOT from idle-3000RPM then it starts to pull. So what i did was double check air fuel, and it seem reasonable, bounces from 12.7 to 13.5. It gets better as I added timing, so i ended up modding the low cam ignition timing quite a bit. It seems the motor can handle a lot more timing then I thought.

I will try to post up the P2P (D16y8) map that im using now VS a stock P28 map. The timing on the D16y8 seems WAY conservative!!

And also, idle on the d16y8 map reads very lean, 18 to 20.5 AFR. is that normal for this map? o.0?


Tomorrow, I will:

Continue to tune it, it can still take a bit more timing, it feels way slow right now. It certain picks up at about 3500-3750. I have yet to take the motor over 5000 RPM. I might also swap back to stock headers and stock cat so i can listen for pinging better.

Do you guys think the motor stop detonating because of the map? or the fuel injectors?




Modified by Br1anPham at 1:12 AM 12/31/2005

DATZ WEAKSAUCE

u need to up the damn octane brian haah 91 dont cut it lol

Br1anPham

I dont want to but if i have to, 8 gallones of 91 and 2 gallons ot 100 will give me a little less then 93 octane.

But I'm sure someone knows how, if possible, to get this car driving on pump gas. TIA


Can anyone confirm the basemap for the D16y8 i have is really a D16y8 bin?

ATS*Mark

sounds to me your flirting with 13:1 compression . no way you can run that on 91 on a y8 unless you retarded timing quite a bit.

ATS*Mark

and from what i remember , z6 base timing is 12 degrees where as y8 is 14.

Br1anPham

Im about 99% sure that the D16z6 base timing is 16 degrees (Service manual + Honda-Tech).

Im unsure about D16y8 base timing, some pretty reputable people on here (SOHC MSHUE included) says the D16y8 timing is 12 degrees. Someone double check please with service manual.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hella_JDM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds to me your flirting with 13:1 compression . no way you can run that on 91 on a y8 unless you retarded timing quite a bit.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I like them crazy sometimes.

ATS*Mark

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im about 99% sure that the D16z6 base timing is 16 degrees (Service manual + Honda-Tech).

Im unsure about D16y8 base timing, some pretty reputable people on here (SOHC MSHUE included) says the D16y8 timing is 12 degrees. Someone double check please with service manual.


I like them crazy sometimes. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you might be right . i cant remember all i know is their base timing are different. and i definatly give you probs on the build . but i would lower the compression to be streetable.

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

Do a compression test. What kind of numbers do you get? You can use it as a rough gauge of how much cylinder pressure there is. If need be, retard the cam to help it bleed off some of the compression.

BoredNStroked

When you advanced your cam did you move move your distributer back to compensate for the cam being advanced? Can you post your ignition and fuel maps? That y8 map looks all out of wack. The z6 map looks the same as my hondata and uberdata p28 base map.

Br1anPham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoredNStroked &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you advanced your cam did you move move your distributer back to compensate for the cam being advanced? Can you post your ignition and fuel maps?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, everytime a cam adjustment was made, it was made on a base p28 map, and the dizzy is adjusted with a timing light to compensate.


The map I am currently using is a GSR bin import -&gt;P28 via uberdata.

-No knock sensor, no vtec, O2 heater disable (im using a wideband), and close loop disable.

-Rev is limited at 6,000 RPM

-the whole Ignition map was retarded 4 degrees.

-Fuel map was not modified. It needed to modification to run the amount of fuel that i wanted it to run luckily.

*Let me know if you still want to see the map; but its pretty basic.*

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoredNStroked &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> That y8 map looks all out of wack.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It definately does, especially at idle. Spec says base timing should be 12 degrees, but according to that map, its well over 20 degrees.

Thats why im a little concerned about trying that d16y8 bin, and using it as a base map.


Modified by Br1anPham at 10:35 AM 12/26/2005

Br1anPham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do a compression test. What kind of numbers do you get? You can use it as a rough gauge of how much cylinder pressure there is. If need be, retard the cam to help it bleed off some of the compression.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is definately good advice. I will do a compression test tomorrow and let you guys know what kind of numbers i get.

I'm wondering, how does retarding the cam help it bleed off some of the compression? Is it because the intake valves open later ro less air is able to go in, therefore the dynamic compression is lower? TIA

IN VTEC

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm wondering, how does retarding the cam help it bleed off some of the compression? Is it because the intake valves open later ro less air is able to go in, therefore the dynamic compression is lower? TIA</TD></TR></TABLE>
Partially for that reason, but it's mostly because it'll close the intake valve later to start the compression cycle later and bleed off some of the compression pressure as the piston is coming up.

Since it's a SOHC, the LSA is fixed, and you won't need to worry about clicking clearance. However, you do need to worry about EX valve-to-piston clearance when retarding the camshaft.

young noob

get a dyno done of this beast, this is almost the same exact set-up i am planning on running, im hoping to get about 155 whp, hopefully you see more

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

The Y8 bin is correct. I have messed with this a bunch on my low compression turbo build, but it will be the same idea. You want to use the Y8 timing maps and then go from there. SOHC MSHUE can add info on this if you PM him.

But I head learned that if you run the timing at 21.75 in the idle columns you can actually set your distributor in the middle , instead of having it fully adavanced like some people do. (this is not the cam timing, the cam timing still needs to be advanced ~ 4.5 degrees as well)

But I would no doubt import the Y8 timing map into your crome map. And make for damn sure you have good gas in there.

Br1anPham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IN VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Partially for that reason, but it's mostly because it'll close the intake valve later to start the compression cycle later and bleed off some of the compression pressure as the piston is coming up.

Since it's a SOHC, the LSA is fixed, and you won't need to worry about clicking clearance. However, you do need to worry about EX valve-to-piston clearance when retarding the camshaft.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks

My valves wont tap the pistons, at least not in the normal lobes at least, i tried settinit to 5 degrees retarded before, tryng to get hecar to idle right. Im jut concerned about the VTEC lobes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Y8 bin is correct. I have messed with this a bunch on my low compression turbo build, but it will be the same idea. You want to use the Y8 timing maps and then go from there. SOHC MSHUE can add info on this if you PM him.

But I head learned that if you run the timing at 21.75 in the idle columns you can actually set your distributor in the middle , instead of having it fully adavanced like some people do. (this is not the cam timing, the cam timing still needs to be advanced ~ 4.5 degrees as well)

But I would no doubt import the Y8 timing map into your crome map. And make for damn sure you have good gas in there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The logic just seems too wierd, because if the map says 21.75 degrees at idle and it is actually set at 12 degrees on the crank, the difference is 9.75degrees. So when the map reads 26.25 degrees at WOT/4000-4400 RPM, it will probably be actually 17.5 degrees. Is this correct?

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The logic just seems too wierd, because if the map says 21.75 degrees at idle and it is actually set at 12 degrees on the crank, the difference is 9.75degrees. So when the map reads 26.25 degrees at WOT/4000-4400 RPM, it will probably be actually 17.5 degrees. Is this correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know the logic seemed very weird to me, but I did a lot of testing on this matter, and that is seriously how it works. You can give it a shot it you want. Put the timing to 21.75 at idle and then set your dizzy dead center... as long as you have the motor timed right it should be dead on.

Br1anPham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know the logic seemed very weird to me, but I did a lot of testing on this matter, and that is seriously how it works. You can give it a shot it you want. Put the timing to 21.75 at idle and then set your dizzy dead center... as long as you have the motor timed right it should be dead on. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Wierd, I'll try the map out!

I will be getting brand new 310cc injectors, a 255 Walbro fuel pump, and a fuel pressure regulator installed so that wil lower the duty cycle on my stock injectors.

I can't get the compression numbers because my compression tester took a ****, I'll get the numbers ASAP.


thanks<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know the logic seemed very weird to me, but I did a lot of testing on this matter, and that is seriously how it works. You can give it a shot it you want. Put the timing to 21.75 at idle and then set your dizzy dead center... as long as you have the motor timed right it should be dead on. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Jim Truett

Post or PM me with your .bin file that you have retarded the timing on.

Have you adjusted the TPS fuel? If you have insufficient fuel delivery on tip-in, you could have a short duration lean condition that is causing detonation.

Br1anPham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jim Truett &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Post or PM me with your .bin file that you have retarded the timing on.

Have you adjusted the TPS fuel? If you have insufficient fuel delivery on tip-in, you could have a short duration lean condition that is causing detonation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was talking to some tuning friends about "tipin" throttle earlier. He said that its the "TPS fuel modifier" in uberdata so i might try it out. How is this done on crome? And also, exactly how does it work?
suggested value = 100, then what is a good value for my next guess? What do i look for after i have modify the "tip-in" throttle? should it rich out right when i hit the throttle and even out? or should it be a constant AFR? thanks!

I will post the map whenever i get ahold of the tuning laptop (still in the garage).

Jim Truett

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Br1anPham &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I was talking to some tuning friends about "tipin" throttle earlier. He said that its the "TPS fuel modifier" in uberdata so i might try it out. How is this done on crome? And also, exactly how does it work?
suggested value = 100, then what is a good value for my next guess? What do i look for after i have modify the "tip-in" throttle? should it rich out right when i hit the throttle and even out? or should it be a constant AFR? thanks!

I will post the map whenever i get ahold of the tuning laptop (still in the garage).</TD></TR></TABLE>

The tip-in is in "fuel tools" within Crome. If you are at 100 now, then up it in increments and watch what happens. On my "D17Z6" at 10.5:1 I needed to run about 15% more fuel, and I see it dip to around 12.8-13:1 on the PLX.

Br1anPham

Awesome, I think I'm going to cancel plans and try this out tonight. Thanks Jim.

SOHC_MShue

Stop running around on that p28 map and load the p2p map in. I promise at WOT you will probably feel no power loss with that map. I even felt like I was making slightly more power with so much less timing at WOT. As for the 21* idle that is a mystery to everyone. Nobody seems to know why the service manual sais to set the base timing at 12*, but in the actual p2p map its at 21*. If you were to load that exact map in and set your base timing to 12* it would throw your map way retarded and it wouldn't drive so well .

IMO the best way to go about this is to get that thing to the dyno immediately for tuning the cam and ignition timing. Also pull the plugs constantly to check for detonation when making timing adjustments. With lower octane it may start to knock before mbt.

Also for tip-in in uberdata it never worked before, but I believe in the new fuel modifiers file it does. At least I have tested their cold cranking adjustment feature in the new file and it works. As for Crome theirs didn't work before either unless they have fixed it too which I think they have.

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Also for tip-in in uberdata it never worked before, but I believe in the new fuel modifiers file it does. At least I have tested their cold cranking adjustment feature in the new file and it works. As for Crome theirs didn't work before either unless they have fixed it too which I think they have. </TD></TR></TABLE>

They both work now. The only thing that worked with ubers old version was the TPS enrich actually was the crank enrich.. haha

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">They both work now. The only thing that worked with ubers old version was the TPS enrich actually was the crank enrich.. haha</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea I still need to make the switch to crome. Hopefully this next time I try it I don't have the same issues I had before. One of them was not being able to adjust the tip-in which for some reason was horribly off.

093turbo16

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yea I still need to make the switch to crome. Hopefully this next time I try it I don't have the same issues I had before. One of them was not being able to adjust the tip-in which for some reason was horribly off. </TD></TR></TABLE>


I still run uberdata. I like it better anyway.