Yep thats right it got moved to DSP with all the other Integra models. And if you notice its on a different line as the others and so is the GSR which means no parts swapping.
Well thats very intresting considering the R is overall a better car than the rest.
Feel free to e-mail the SEB so we can get the R out of DSP and into a class where it wont kick the crap out of all the cars in its class.

Any thoughts on this??

 

The R does not stand any better chance against the BMW's and Lexus than the other Honda products. The car does not have the ability to run any bigger tire than it does in stock compared to the rear drivers running 275-315 width tires in DSP. The tire OD of the available tires wider than 225 won't work on the R any better than any other Integra. It can't run 13 or 14" wheels to lower the gearing and ride height. It's probably 50lbs lighter than a GSR in full SP trim but has less midrange torque. Basically someone would be a fool to take a competitive stock class car and turn it into an also ran in SP.

If the rear drive 6 cylinder cars get moved out, then I might consider complaining about it. Please note this is from someone who has been running a GSR in DSP for 5 years on a mostly local level.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yep thats right it got moved to DSP with all the other Integra models. And if you notice its on a different line as the others and so is the GSR which means no parts swapping.
Well thats very intresting considering the R is overall a better car than the rest.
Feel free to e-mail the SEB so we can get the R out of DSP and into a class where it wont kick the crap out of all the cars in its class.

Any thoughts on this??</TD></TR></TABLE>

94 Integra RS + GSR powertrain = a car lighter than a Type R. Think about it for a second.

I'm the one who asked for that rule change and suggested the ITR be on a seperate line--so that you wouldn't have a few 94 RS's with Type R powertrains running around.

There are a lot more GSRs that there are ITRs, and I see the RS/GSR being every bit as capable as a ITR.

 

Look at the rulebook again. The GSR is listed separately from the RS/LS, although there is no year listed, so I guess we can combine the 92 1/2-93 cars with the 94-01's. My memory said they published something last fall in Sportcar saying they were going to combine all the 94-01's except for the R but the current listing does not say that.

If a tire company would come out with a tire 245 or wider less than 23" tall and the cars really were combined like I thought they were going to be, you would see me out beating the bushes for an RS with no sunroof. Think how much money the rulebook saved me this year, thanks.

 

I'm suprised to hear this.
I need to remind you of a few things.....
1. The brakes on the ITR are bigger and better.
2. The gearing is shorter...Better for autocrossing seeing as I'm always in 2nd gear mid all the time.
3. The ITR is 60lbs less weight than the GSR.
4. The ITR has 19HP more than the GSR.
5. The ITR chassis is stiffer than the rest.
6. The suspension arms are stronger than the rest.

The ITR cannot benefit from any parts on any other model of Integra.
The GSR can only benefit from the ITR but its on a different line.
And the Other Integras can only benefit from the 2 above because they are on different lines as the 2 above.
How is it not obvious that these should not be in the same class.
If you put the GSR and ITR on the same line the others would be screwed. If you put the 94-01 on the same line as the ITR the GSR would get screwed. So its VERY obvious that these cars should not be in the same class.
You cannot mix any parts fron the 94-01 Integras (nonGSR/ITR) to match the ITR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The R does not stand any better chance against the BMW's and Lexus than the other Honda products. The car does not have the ability to run any bigger tire than it does in stock compared to the rear drivers running 275-315 width tires in DSP. The tire OD of the available tires wider than 225 won't work on the R any better than any other Integra. It can't run 13 or 14" wheels to lower the gearing and ride height. It's probably 50lbs lighter than a GSR in full SP trim but has less midrange torque. Basically someone would be a fool to take a competitive stock class car and turn it into an also ran in SP.

If the rear drive 6 cylinder cars get moved out, then I might consider complaining about it. Please note this is from someone who has been running a GSR in DSP for 5 years on a mostly local level.</TD></TR></TABLE>

14" Rims do fit the ITR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">14" Rims do fit the ITR.</TD></TR></TABLE>

nopers.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm suprised to hear this.
I need to remind you of a few things.....
1. The brakes on the ITR are bigger and better.
2. The gearing is shorter...Better for autocrossing seeing as I'm always in 2nd gear mid all the time.
3. The ITR is 60lbs less weight than the GSR.
4. The ITR has 19HP more than the GSR.
5. The ITR chassis is stiffer than the rest.
6. The suspension arms are stronger than the rest.

The ITR cannot benefit from any parts on any other model of Integra.
The GSR can only benefit from the ITR but its on a different line.
And the Other Integras can only benefit from the 2 above because they are on different lines as the 2 above.
How is it not obvious that these should not be in the same class.
If you put the GSR and ITR on the same line the others would be screwed. If you put the 94-01 on the same line as the ITR the GSR would get screwed. So its VERY obvious that these cars should not be in the same class.
You cannot mix any parts fron the 94-01 Integras (nonGSR/ITR) to match the ITR. </TD></TR></TABLE>

1. Brakes are a moot point. On a track I would be worried. On an autox course, it is not a big deal. GSR brakes are kist as good with good pads.
2. ITR must run 15" wheel. GSr can run a 13" wheel. Waaay shorter gearing on the GSR because if this
3. I need to look up how the cars are listed now, because a RS/GSr is lighter than a Type R
4. GSR has more midrange torque
5. Stiffer chassis does not mean a faster chassis on an autox course
6. You can use alternate "mounts" (suspension arms0 in SP. hence, you can use the Type R LCAs on any integra.

Really, it isn't as big of a deal as you are making it. Not like either will contend for the championship as long as the 315/35/18 shod BMWs are in DSP, although I may be crazy enough to try in a year or two...

 

Yes they do....their called custom made......which is legal in DSP.

 

Brakes are a moot point....BWHAHAHAH...if you put the same pad on the GSR and ITR the ITR brakes are still better...so its not a moot point.

The GSR is heavier than the ITR and the RS is lighter than the ITR.

And for those of you argueing the tire point....you can flare the fenders. So yes you can fit a wider tire on all the Integras.
The point is not whether the Integra can win or not it's all the Integras in the same class on different lines.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2. The gearing is shorter...Better for autocrossing seeing as I'm always in 2nd gear mid all the time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But the revs are also higher. Kind of a wash.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">6. The suspension arms are stronger than the rest.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope. Other than the rear LCA, they are all the same.

RJ - who is not sure what you're arguing about anyways

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But the revs are also higher. Kind of a wash.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

UMMMM....thats a benefit in autocrossing....try again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

5. Stiffer chassis does not mean a faster chassis on an autox course
..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Please explain.......how. Because you know thats BS with the ITR.

 

You don't know what you're talking about. The FWD Hondas WERE NOT COMPETITIVE ANYWAY. The only way a FWD Honda is going to win in DSP, not trophy, is if it's an ITR. You're misinformed about a lot of things but the whole basis for your argument is bunk. FWD Hondas are not even close in DSP right now. The ITR may get closer, or even get there, but nothing else has a chance except perhaps the aforementioned RS+GSR update/backdate but that got shot down by the ****.

 

Right, then why are the rest of the Integras in DSP?

 

As originally written the intent was for the RS/LS to be on the same line as the GSR with the R on it's own line. It did not happen that way, I don't know why.

If 14's fit a R, and I also don't think they do, it does not really help since a 225/50/14 is the same OD as a 225/45/15, although some of the 14" 225's are wider than the 15" 225's.

Honda overrates the R or underrates the GSR so the difference is maybe 10hp at the top end. A GSR makes more power than an R up to at least 6200.

Bigger brakes are heavier. I can lock or activate the ABS at any autox speed at any time, so bigger brakes are just more unsprung rotating mass that I don't need.

225/45/13 tires make second gear shorter than any tire an R can run, shorter transmission gearing not withstanding.

Weight advantage I already agree with.

Suspension arms are different, but don't know if they are actually stronger. Stamped sheet metal versus cast nodular iron. Lighter I can believe and some different geometry too.

Chassis stiffer I also agree with but have never seen any numbers of how much actual difference there really is.

A base RS with a GSR motor/trans would be lighter and faster than an R. Both would still be stomped by the rear drive cars in the class.

In general, I welcome the R to the class, not fear it. I do not expect to see any national caliber cars being built by people who expect national level success. Way too expensive to build to just be a field filler.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

UMMMM....thats a benefit in autocrossing....try again.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

My point was that top speed in 2nd gear isnt much different between GSR and ITR

 

I guess I was typing too slow.

Wider tires? What ones are you planning on running? Cut the fenders off, you are still going to run into the unibody structure above the tires if the OD is much over 23". I suppose it might work if you are willing to run higher than stock ride height combined with stiff enough springs to eliminate suspension movement up front.

A built to the limit of the rules R "might" be faster than a GSR built to the same limit. So what, they will both still be crushed by the class leaders. Fastest DSP Honda product at nationals might get you a trophy but not a jacket. The same money and skill put into a 3 series could get the jacket so why would a serious national level competitor do it?

As for brakes, I can stop as hard as the tires can take, and can run the same tires. How are the R brakes better at autox speeds?

I'm not really looking to argue, just using the same reasoning the National board did when they put it in the class. I'd rather put the same effort into getting the rear drive dominant cars put into ESP so we can go back to playing with the X1/9's like it used to be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm suprised to hear this.
I need to remind you of a few things.....
1. The brakes on the ITR are bigger and better.
2. The gearing is shorter...Better for autocrossing seeing as I'm always in 2nd gear mid all the time.
3. The ITR is 60lbs less weight than the GSR.
4. The ITR has 19HP more than the GSR.
5. The ITR chassis is stiffer than the rest.
6. The suspension arms are stronger than the rest.

The ITR cannot benefit from any parts on any other model of Integra.
The GSR can only benefit from the ITR but its on a different line.
And the Other Integras can only benefit from the 2 above because they are on different lines as the 2 above.
How is it not obvious that these should not be in the same class.
If you put the GSR and ITR on the same line the others would be screwed. If you put the 94-01 on the same line as the ITR the GSR would get screwed. So its VERY obvious that these cars should not be in the same class.
You cannot mix any parts fron the 94-01 Integras (nonGSR/ITR) to match the ITR. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you serious?

My old 94 RS was easily lighter than an ITR. *If* it were legal to put a GSR powertrain into that shell, that would be the integra to run.

And 13" wheels? Get out. You can take your puny 13"s, I'll find a way to make some 16s or 17s or even 18s fit (assuming I had access to a never-ending supply of money).

The only way you're going to beat the Lexus/Bimmer cars is by playing their game, and that's the "let's put as much tire as possible on the car" game.

Hell, it might even be able to be done on 225/45/15s, but you gotta do everything you can, and I mean everything, to get the weight down. Power/weight ratio ain't **** in autox, tire/weight ratio is the key......

But I'm sure you already knew that, and I'm sure you already know the winning set-up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carl_aka_carlos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Are you serious?

My old 94 RS was easily lighter than an ITR. *If* it were legal to put a GSR powertrain into that shell, that would be the integra to run.

And 13" wheels? Get out. You can take your puny 13"s, I'll find a way to make some 16s or 17s or even 18s fit (assuming I had access to a never-ending supply of money).

The only way you're going to beat the Lexus/Bimmer cars is by playing their game, and that's the "let's put as much tire as possible on the car" game.

Hell, it might even be able to be done on 225/45/15s, but you gotta do everything you can, and I mean everything, to get the weight down. Power/weight ratio ain't **** in autox, tire/weight ratio is the key......

But I'm sure you already knew that, and I'm sure you already know the winning set-up.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK you know what. At least the other people in this thread actually make good points and at least back them up....
Your out in left field all alone. Here you are saying tire/weight ratio but then your saying at 16,17 or 18" rim is the way to go HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE ME FROM THIS GUY. GO BACK TO YOUR DRIFTING EVENT AND LEAVE THIS THREAD TO THE GUYS THAT ACTUALLY AUTOCROSS. You have no clue what your talking about.
A 13" rim allows you to run a wider tire. And read the whole thread before you post.


To the others. We'll have to see how it does and I'll have to leave it at that. I do agree that some of the other cars have a deffinate advantage over the Integra.
I haven't seen anyone really try to win at the Nationals with an Integra with flared fenders and all that can be done. I hope that I do but in the mean time the classing is not right (not pointing at the Type-R in DSP issue alone).

 

The Type R belongs in DSP. I should have come down from CSP with the other Integras before, but that is all well traveld history. As it has been said by many here, pretty much all the items the Type R has over the GSR in stock form can be nullified within the rules for SP. It is a wash, if anything I would probably look more at a GSR between the two.

However, as it has been said here too, this is all for nothing, as the Integras can not match the (weight, tire, hp/tq) advantage of the BMW's/IS300. And with the number of well prepared BMW's in the country increasing as we speak, it would be a hard fought battle for anything better than a mid trophy position. Several tried with well prepared GSR's. They trophied, but they kept losing more and more ground to the BMW's. Most of the trophy BMW's are not even near maxing out in the rules as well. Several are reaching that point though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jojoforhelp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE ME FROM THIS GUY. GO BACK TO YOUR DRIFTING EVENT AND LEAVE THIS THREAD TO THE GUYS THAT ACTUALLY AUTOCROSS. You have no clue what your talking about.
A 13" rim allows you to run a wider tire. And read the whole thread before you post.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Carl does autocross. Check the attitude at the door, please.

 

so lemme get this straight...


The only advantage that ACTUALLY matters in autocross that the ITR gets over a GSR or RS/LS is that it'll have more top end power, and it's got a stiffer chassis.

On the other hand, it'll have to be higher since it cannot run 13s, so it doesn't get ANY gearing advantage, and therefore any power differential is null.

And as I recall, carl_aka_carlos was one of the few people who actually DID autocross an integra nationally, albeit in STS.

Yup, I'm going to go with everyone else except the thread starter and say that it's a waste of time to build a Type R for DSP. It'll be not only slower than the BMW/Lexus "ESP" (*grin*) cars, but even the Neons, Fiats, and even a Celica IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Carl does autocross. Check the attitude at the door, please.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats great because he doesn't know anything about what he brought up. He might want to get some edumacation in autocrossing then.

Sounds like you guys are missing the point here. I still don't think the R should be classed with the GSR and if they are they should be on the same line. But that arguement is pretty much over.

Putting the 94-01 Integras on their own line because if you mixed them with the GSR or ITR they would be winners is exactly why they should not all be classed together. So the 94-01 Integras do have a distinct disadvantage with the R. Which brings up another point....why would you ask for them to be on different lines if you think none of them are competitive anyways lower the chance for someone to use an RS with GSR/ITR parts so they could possibly trophy in DSP....makes no sense except that you don't have one and don't want to be beat by one.


Modified by jojoforhelp at 9:03 AM 3/12/2005


Modified by jojoforhelp at 9:03 AM 3/12/2005


Modified by jojoforhelp at 9:06 AM 3/12/2005


Modified by jojoforhelp at 9:10 AM 3/12/2005


Modified by jojoforhelp at 9:10 AM 3/12/2005

 

I think everyone is missing the point.

Whether or not the ITR should be in the same class as the GSR has nothing to do with how competitive either one is compared to the 3 series in said class.

Its a matter of proper classing in terms of a level playing field between the two cars. What if the 3 series had been removed from DSP? Would it be a different story?

Considering how AutoX rules are designed, I see it as a huge problem. In DSP if you remove your rear interior panels that might weigh 10lbs, that bumps you into what Prepared class?

However a car with larger brakes, less weight, and stiffer suspension bushings (which no one has noted yet) can run in the same class as an identical car except heavier, less power, and smaller brakes?

Doesn't add up to me.