I'm posting this for my bro .... this is in regards to his previous thread https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1152270

He pulled the pan and this is what he found... metal shavings in the oil/filter and one rod very out of place.

3 of the rods are centered correctly


1 is way off


notice the burnt mark on the crank


3 of the bearings look fine




but not the one with the rod off center



notice how the side of the rod cap looks scarred


and 3 of the journals look ok


now the trouble one



How can the rod be so off center on the wrist pin?

I'm sure he will chime in once he gets home, but i'd like to hear what you guys think would cause this. Again, he bought the short block assembled with ~800 miles on it and immediately noticed a loud knocking when it was first fired up.

 

looks to me like you spun a bearing

 

I don't know what's wrong with your block, but I definitely like that camera!

 

i said the same thing when i saw the pics

 

Thanks for posting that up for me mark.

Camera is a sony 2 mega pixel believe it or not.

I can't understand why the #4 rod is SO far off center, I don't get it. Each rod had side play on the big end which is expected. The forth rod is literly rubbing against the crank, you can see the burn marks on the crank and the scaring on the side of the rod cap.

Do the other bearings look ok to you guys? I can see some pitting from forign material, might be from the fucked bearing I guess.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wantboost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looks to me like you spun a bearing</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope...his bearing is still seated in the caps, and there doesn't appear to be any sign that it spun.

I wonder if something clogged the oil passage to that particular bearing?

Or possibly the clearnaces were just too tight.

Check the thrust bearings by having someone press on the clutch while you watch for play. The rod is offset at the wrist pin because the bearing is weared away on that one side (I reason this because of just the heat marks on one side of the crank and not the other).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Nope...his bearing is still seated in the caps, and there doesn't appear to be any sign that it spun.

I wonder if something clogged the oil passage to that particular bearing?

Or possibly the clearnaces were just too tight.

Check the thrust bearings by having someone press on the clutch while you watch for play. The rod is offset at the wrist pin because the bearing is weared away on that one side (I reason this because of just the heat marks on one side of the crank and not the other).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Look at how much it's actually off centered though, must be almost 1/4". Something doesn't add up

 

Ok I was editing my post and deleted it by accident.

But as I said bryson confirmed.

"Have you inspected the thrust washers? Which cylinder is this rod in? Have you inspected to see if the crank is 'walking'? When Bryson was saying he didn't see any sign that the bearing spun... what usually happens is when dealing with spun bearings they tend to 'fall out' of the journals when removed. The heat gets so great that the actual journal will tend to bow in a little bit. As seen in the picture above, the bearing was still in the cap. The picture could be deceiving though. When you took the picture of that rod that appears 'moved' did you take it WITH the rod caps on and torqued, right?

The rod that is off... what does it do when it is at TDC in relation to it's position on the wrist pin? Again, I too can see the heat marks on one side and not the other. This would essentially be why it was off so far. Think of the pythagorean theorem here when it comes to angles and perpendicular points of attachment here.

I'm still awaiting to see how the thrust washers check out though...

 

Exactly.

In most cases when the bearing spins, it will heat up so much in just a few seconds that it will weld it self too the crank(or rod) and then the rod will just beat the **** out of whats left of the bearing.

However, that obviously isn't the case here.

 

just looks like you have clearance issues to me. Why did they sell the block?

 

ok look here at these pics and it will show you how they are war funny ,

you can see in these first 2 pics where i marked them in red see how it is not flat but angled ,





and now this one is flat and perfect ,



it might not look like it is off by alot but transfer that amount of movment to the top of the rod and it will be off that far , it like building a house on a unlevel foundation , the foundation might look level but then when you get the first wall up it will show , see what i mean ,

 

Good eye. I did not notice that, but it definately explains why it's so off on the wrist pin.

So why would the bearing wear like that and what would have to be done to fix it? I mean, why would just this one rod do this and not the others? is it just because it's the closest to the flywheel?

Do these rods have an offset? it is possible that it's installed the wrong way?


Modified by BlackT5 at 9:22 AM 2/26/2005

 

you will need to get the crank checked , cus that journal might have a taper to it , and get the rods checked also , cus the wrist pin side might be fucked up also , and no the rods have no offset on them , i would just get the whole bottom end looked at to be safe , also let the person know that you got this from whats up with it ,

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok I was editing my post and deleted it by accident.

But as I said bryson confirmed.

"Have you inspected the thrust washers? Which cylinder is this rod in? Have you inspected to see if the crank is 'walking'? When Bryson was saying he didn't see any sign that the bearing spun... what usually happens is when dealing with spun bearings they tend to 'fall out' of the journals when removed. The heat gets so great that the actual journal will tend to bow in a little bit. As seen in the picture above, the bearing was still in the cap. The picture could be deceiving though. When you took the picture of that rod that appears 'moved' did you take it WITH the rod caps on and torqued, right?

The rod that is off... what does it do when it is at TDC in relation to it's position on the wrist pin? Again, I too can see the heat marks on one side and not the other. This would essentially be why it was off so far. Think of the pythagorean theorem here when it comes to angles and perpendicular points of attachment here.

I'm still awaiting to see how the thrust washers check out though...</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's the rod closest to the flywheel, so its #4.

Ok, I just finished checking to see if the crank was walking, and it's not. There is no side to side play when pushing on the clutch. The pictures above are with the rod caps torqued.

Also, the rod is in the same orientation throughout its stroke.

B18C1CYA: I didn't notice the funny tapor wear on the bearing, good eye.... What do you think could of caused this? poor assembly?

I will be pulling the block out as soon as possilbe to get a closer look and see wtf is causing this mess.

I have PMed the seller this thread also.

I appreciate the help guys.

 

wow that is the same wear and thing as my h23 block that i let the machine shop assembled it with non oem bearings which looks like what you got, yes its def assembly problems there, there seams to be too much play in the rod bearings do to wrong size

 

bump

 

do you have any idea what The rod side clearance was when it was assembled?

 

I have seen this occur once before. It was a Chevrolet 350 (unimportant), and it turned out to be improper bearing clearances.

OEM bearings are available with taper. Why? Because sometimes during the manufacturing process the journal surface is not finished perfectly perpendicular to the rod. So instead of remachining them, they install bearings with a slight amount of taper.

On that Chevrolet 350, an OEM bearing with 0.25° of taper was mixed in with the zero taper undersize bearings. Since the clearance had been measured on the low side, the high side of the taper sat too close. Only a couple thousanths, but it was enough, when oil pressure was applied, to force the rod to one side. In the Chevy's case, it snapped the wrist pin out of the piston as well as marring the bearing and journal exactly like yours.

 

do you have pressed pins or floaters?

 

Check the side to side play also on the crank u may have some crank walk but looks like IE the rod is twisted to the side or something.

 

Thanks for the replies guys, lets hear some more

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pontiac power &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you have pressed pins or floaters?</TD></TR></TABLE>

they are floaters on aftermarket rods ,

 

I have seen shitty no-name bearings not sit right on the rod. when the rod endcap was tightened the crank would pretty much lock up. but we fixed the problem before we assembled it. did you check your bearings with plastigauge? this set of bearings made the plastigauge taper from side to side. making the crank journals look like they tapered.

 

possibly a bad rod. it may be a possibility that the rod could have been resized improperly and now has a slight taper to it from one side to the other. u never know with used parts it could have had a spun bearing on it at one time or another and was attempted to be fixed but done wrong.
i dont feel like doing the math now but a couple thousands of an inch in taper when transfered 130 something mm up to the top of the rod could possible cause it to position itself a whole mm off at the wristpin location....
goodluck

 

hey man i think you should take some pics of the thrust washers, everyone is always quick to jump to conclusions on here. if this was any other block i wouldnt say to much but i can vouch for this block this thing was running **** when it was pulled and shipped i cant stand it when people lie i meen if your gonna say there is a problem with the block then be honest on your half dont try and say it was knocking right when you started it, why dont you take some pics of the whole thing torn down maybe some ring gland shots so we can see the whole thing. if you would like i can have plenty of people vouch for david and this block. in my opinion if you lie about one thing then why should people belive that you are telling the truth about anything. david dont give this guy anything untill further pics are taken!!