Check it out here if you have not already seen it.

http://lfttech.com/

Currently only the HANS device and the R3 have the SFI 38.1 certification.



I had my hands all over this last weekend. It seemed pretty darn nice!

Anyone have any thoughts on this they want to share?


Modified by Safe Drives at 5:57 PM 2/25/2005

 

Bump. Bueler?

 

Insert .RJ "no bumping allowed"


My thoughts on it.

Does not look as comfortable as the Hans and is probably just as expensive.

 

When the price isn't listed it usually doesn't bode (sp?) well.

 

Comfort was the first thing that I thought of as well. We are putting it on a couple of our rally racer friends here in the NW for the Doo Wops rally series on March 4-5th. They are going to do a nice write up on what they think of it. It might get in Sports Car... I'll post the write up here as well I guess.

The R3 does include BSCI seat insert energy absorbing foam that contours youir seat to the R3. The R3 also has it's own padding built in as pictured below.

As for the price it has an introductory price of $895 and that's for a carbon fiber unit where the HANS equivalent is much more.

Trevor Ashline of LFT Tech(maker of the R3 and the Hutchens device) swears that the R3 is safer than the HANS Device in a side impact and just as safe in any other impact as well. Check out the images provided to us by them.



The Two on the bottom left are 50G side impacts and show the HANS Device failing since it relies on the shoulder belts.

The R3 does not rely on the seat belts at all.

 

Has anyone used one of these?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safe Drives &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Has anyone used one of these?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This looks like thinly veiled advertising to me.

Hey SafeDrives, I'll post the link for you.

http://www.safedrives.com/products.asp?cat=82

List Price: $995.00
Your super uber duper SafeDrives Price: $895.00

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Forum Rules &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
- No commercial ads - site sponsor information here - https://secure.rely.net/ht-ads/
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

That's a weak comparison boys. The best lateral protection is offered by high cockpit sides and strong lateral headrests and/or nets, (as graphically shown in the 50g test).

The Hans is shown being tested without lateral head support, and the R3 is being tested with a headrest in the 70 g test. It is clear that the seat's lateral headrest is doing all of the work! Not apples to apples!

 

in a rear impact, wouldn't this just dig into your spine?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This looks like thinly veiled advertising to me.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

he is a site sponsor.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in a rear impact, wouldn't this just dig into your spine?</TD></TR></TABLE>

you don't go back wards or arch backwars, you are held in with your belts firmly against the seat. once your head goes forward its stoped from going back, causing an arch in the back, by the seat.

at least thats my take on it

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in a rear impact, wouldn't this just dig into your spine?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This guy has a very valid question here.

Let me explain the system a bit.

The kit comes with energy absorbing padding(made by BSCI) that is to be placed in the seat. This padding comes pre-shaped or contoured to go around the R3 so that you have seamless integration into your race seat. Also there are three seperate models of R3 that are designed for the three major seat types.

Check out the install guide PDF found in the link that Chris F so nicely posted for us.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safe Drives &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As for the price it has an introductory price of $895 and that's for a carbon fiber unit where the HANS equivalent is much more.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Not sure what you mean by that. You can get the "economy" Hans which is the same as the "professional" except for a few ounces straight from Hans for 865. That is with no deal either.

So, price point just went out the window.

I would really be worried about comfort. The hans or issacs seems to me like it would be MUCH more comfortable in a longer race. I would like to see these first hand, and that's probably gonna happen at the next sema if all 3 have displays.

To me, it's pretty simple. About the same price as Hans, but not an established track record like the hans. I think this would probably be even more difficult to get out of a small car with that the hans. I also don't think I would like an extra strap around my chest.

It's still hans vs Issacs for my decision.


If someone could make one of these devices that was just as safe, but not 900 bucks, I think they would sell alot more!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not sure what you mean by that. You can get the "economy" Hans which is the same as the "professional" except for a few ounces straight from Hans for 865. That is with no deal either.

So, price point just went out the window.

I would really be worried about comfort. The hans or issacs seems to me like it would be MUCH more comfortable in a longer race. I would like to see these first hand, and that's probably gonna happen at the next sema if all 3 have displays.

To me, it's pretty simple. About the same price as Hans, but not an established track record like the hans. I think this would probably be even more difficult to get out of a small car with that the hans. I also don't think I would like an extra strap around my chest.

It's still hans vs Issacs for my decision.


If someone could make one of these devices that was just as safe, but not 900 bucks, I think they would sell alot more!</TD></TR></TABLE>



I have been looking for a substitute for the HANS of equal quality but I am probably going to break down and get a HANS because no other competitors want to even compete in the market, financially speaking.

The HANS is proven, smaller, simpler and since it's the same price... what's my motivation to go elsewhere?

 

I saw this device at PRI. It looks sound, if a bit uncomfortable in my opinion. Unlike the Hutchins it looks like it'll actually work and won't castrate you. I doubt it would damage your spine in a rear impact. At the point the forces would get that high the device would simply break, and in any case most spinal injuries in racing accidents are from either hyperextesnion (which HANS and similar devices are meant to protect you from), or compression injuries from submarining (which is what the lap belt & sub-strap are meant to stop).

The comparison test photos shown above aren't very conclusive.

Seat design has a lot more to do with how much head & neck movement there is in a direct side impact. If the seat isn't up to the task of holding your torso in place no head & neck restraint is going to help you.

A good seat should have support on the shoulders and pelvis (and NOT on the ribcage). A right side net with a quick release is a good idea if installed properly.

For about $30 you can get a DVD from SCCA that's chock full of information. One thing it shows is that we may have to re-think seat set-ups. There's a video shot in it of a NASCAR wreck where the camera managed to stay on and film the impact effects on the driver.

The crash was a side-impact and in the side supports on the aluminum seat bent like taffy under the impact. It was amazing that the driver was unhurt by the amount he was flailing around. In this particular case the head & neck restraint is a moot point because the seat failed to hold the driver in place in a side impact.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Raceworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The comparison test photos shown above aren't very conclusive.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not so sure. It IS clear in those images that the HANS came out of harness and essentially failed.

It's a fact that in a side impact one side of the harness is loaded while the other is not. This fact allows the HANS Device to come out of the harness.

The R3 is the only SFI 38.1 certified head and neck restraint that does not rely on the harness to be effective.

 

It is a fact that the lateral headrest, integral to the seat, is clearly taking most of the load in the 70g test photo. A valid point that you ignored when I brought it up earlier.

Again, a proper system of a 6 point harness, lateral head supports and/or nets along with a proper head and neck support work together to offer the best protection. I think it is mis-leading to imply that your new device can offer that level of protection by itself.


Modified by Track rat at 7:58 PM 2/25/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is a fact that the lateral headrest, integral to the seat, is clearly taking most of the load in the 70g test photo. A valid point that you ignored when I brought it up earlier.

Again, a proper system of a 6 point harness, lateral head supports and/or nets along with a proper head and neck support work together to offer the best protection. I think it is mis-leading to imply that your new device can offer that level of protection by itself.


Modified by Track rat at 7:58 PM 2/25/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good points.

I mainly wanted to point out that the R3 does not rely on the belts to work. A top end safety system should include all of those items you mentioned. Unfortunately most of us do not have nor can afford those top end safety systems.

I will point out that the image above of the HANS Device failing the 50G test DOES have a side impact head restraint/ lateral head supports type of seat. It still failed...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safe Drives &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> A top end safety system should include all of those items you mentioned. Unfortunately most of us do not have nor can afford those top end safety systems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

With that logic..why is your 70 g test shown with that seat no one can afford?
Racing isn't cheap...neither is long term disability, a powered wheel chair, back surgery or a funeral. If someone cares enough about safety to consider a $900 head and neck support, lateral nets and/or proper headrests are very affordable.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Safe Drives &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will point out that the image above of the HANS Device failing the 50G test DOES have a side impact head restraint/ lateral head supports type of seat. It still failed...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, I don't see an adequate headrest in either HANS test. Are you talking about the old school, unbraced alum flaps...which bend like rubber? Your 70 g test clearly has a properly braced headrest that is performing as it was designed, it is not apparent in the other photos.

Can you post more photos of the reverse angle?

 

It's not my test.

I am just a dealer for the R3 and I have been provided these images and some extra info on those images like the fact that the HANS Device images were of a seat with the side brace.

From the research that I have done it does appear to me that the R3 may in fact be safer the HANS Device in a side impact no matter what your safety system.

However I have not used one of these yet so I started this thread was asking for opinions on this product and if folks have used one of these yet.

The specific detail of those images I have no idea other than I was told that there was a side brace on the seat in those tests.

I have no other images. Those images came in the brochure for the R3.

Obviously it is smarter to have every part of these safety systems. The reality is that most drivers will only do what is required by the sanctioning body.

 

From what I have read, and learned in a seminar from a General Motors crash expert, was that the HANS device was designed so you don't stretch your neck on a front or rear crash. Thus, it prevents the spine from stretching.

The primary cause for death/injury is if your head rotates as its stretched.

The side impact feature isn't really taken into account, since the sides of the seat are supposed to limit your head movement, or rotation. In open-wheel cars they design the padding on the cockpit so the head will push in straight without rotating the head, cause the rotation is what will snap your neck.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Marauder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The primary cause for death/injury is if your head rotates as its stretched.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Quote from Dr. Ron Hubbard,

"The head is connected to the neck by tendons that come from the muscles around the neck and also by ligaments around the upper backbone.

In an auto-racing crash, the torso is restrained by a racing harness. But with nothing to hold the head in place, it snaps forward, and the tension that develops between the head and torso is transmitted through the neck.

Basilar skull fractures aren't fatal by themselves, but the resulting injuries disrupt the major blood vessels to the head, causing massive blood loss and possible death. It also can damage the spinal column or brain stem, which can be fatal."

As I understand it, rotation can exaggerate the effect, but the hyperextension is the primary concern.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As I understand it, rotation can exaggerate the effect, but the hyperextension is the primary concern.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

From what the GM guy said, the spine can take much more abuse if the head extends straight out. Like they have data recordings of 120 G force crashes and since the head just moved straight forward, there was no injury. But a crash with only 50G peak force, and a slight rotation of the head during the crash and there was a neck injury.

 

My comment is consistent with yours, although the GM data demonstrates the rotation is much more of a factor than I was led to believe. I think we are on the same page here.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you don't go back wards or arch backwars, you are held in with your belts firmly against the seat. once your head goes forward its stoped from going back, causing an arch in the back, by the seat.

at least thats my take on it</TD></TR></TABLE>

belts stretch a whole lot in a crash so im wondering if it acts as a pivot and lifts you further off the seat with that back brace built in

 

Back from the dead. Does anyone have any additional information on the R3 track record a year and a half later? Anyone ever personally tried it and can speak for the comfort or discomfort compared to a HANS device?