I was talking to Zolt on the phone yesterday and we were talking about his ground control setup. The ground control's look like they are well made and are a good shock, but they seem to be somewhat untested as Koni is the lay of the land. Does anyone have any comments or opinions on what I should put on my ITS GSR if I were to start from scratch?

 

Hmmmm??? Zsolt will put ground controls on his GSR but he won't bring the car the Summit or VIR for that matter and race the dang thing.....

 

Which Koni are you comparing them to?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Which Koni are you comparing them to?

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Probably to Koni RACE (SPSS Valved) Shocks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was talking to Zolt on the phone yesterday and we were talking about his ground control setup. The ground control's look like they are well made and are a good shock, but they seem to be somewhat untested as Koni is the lay of the land. Does anyone have any comments or opinions on what I should put on my ITS GSR if I were to start from scratch?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Advance Design Shocks = . This year's ARRC ITA champ was using them, and has used them for a few years. He set up my car with them and even though I only have one test and tune with them, I love them already.

 

How do you get ahold of the Advance design coilovers, who sell em?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Maxx44 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmmmm??? Zsolt will put ground controls on his GSR but he won't bring the car the Summit or VIR for that matter and race the dang thing..... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Zsolt has been running them all year, but some GSR driver didn't show for 2 Road Atlanta weekends! Had some lame excuse about the 1000 mile tow.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mikes01GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you get ahold of the Advance design coilovers, who sell em?</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.ground-control.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was talking to Zolt on the phone yesterday and we were talking about his ground control setup. The ground control's look like they are well made and are a good shock, but they seem to be somewhat untested as Koni is the lay of the land. Does anyone have any comments or opinions on what I should put on my ITS GSR if I were to start from scratch?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here are some previous threads :

1
2
3

I talked to Ground Control a while back about an application for my prelude, they said : 1. the shocks can absoloutly NOT be driven on the street; they're a track only application and will be damaged (i.e., needing repeated rebuilds) from street use - they'll leak too, 2. rebuilds cost 60/shock and 3., they need the full payment up front, before they'll build you a set.

From reading the archives here, some people have used the shocks and loved them, others have found Ground Control's customer service to be lacking. The BMW guys (especially M3 owners) love these shocks, so you could ask around those forums for more input.

All in all, they're a good deal for a 2 way adjustable race shock, and are the least expensive of all the shocks comprable to them in adjustability and features -they're also really lightweight.

 

I haven't driven them on a honda but the AD's on a bmw were just amazing. Our local very fast ESP Sti has them on his car and likes them as well.

I'm using revalved konis because I got such a good deal on them. If you are looking at converting konis to double adjustable and revalving, shortening, etc. it almost comes up to the cost of the AD's.

Both the cars I know that have them are driven on the street some, not a lot, but they will not just start to leak instantly if you drive them.

 

a few m3 guys even drive them on the street, most guys eather go motons or ad's for e36's. Id say if your looking for something better then koni's go for em

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm using revalved konis because I got such a good deal on them. If you are looking at converting konis to double adjustable and revalving, shortening, etc. it almost comes up to the cost of the AD's. </TD></TR></TABLE>

And you still have a heavy steel street shock you have just put $1500+ into to dress them up as race shock.

I like the ADs becuase,

* They are super light
* They are short
* Build quality is excellent
* Valved to your specs and easily re-valved to your specs
* They "feel" awesome on the car
* Price isn't too bad

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Both the cars I know that have them are driven on the street some, not a lot, but they will not just start to leak instantly if you drive them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wasn't trying to imply that they'd spontentously implode if driven on the street, just relaying that the GC guys were very ademant about that point; e.g., these shocks were not designed for consistent street use. Could you get to the track on them w/out incident? Probably. Could you ruin them running over potholes all day long? Yes. And much sooner than a convential steel body shock ; eg., koni.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wasn't trying to imply that they'd spontentously implode if driven on the street, just relaying that the GC guys were very ademant about that point; e.g., these shocks were not designed for consistent street use. Could you get to the track on them w/out incident? Probably. Could you ruin them running over potholes all day long? Yes. And much sooner than a convential steel body shock ; eg., koni.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a very misleading statement. Body material has absolutely nothing to do with longevity. I'm assuming this isn't what you're saying, but it could easily be misconstrued as such.

When asked, A-D told me that "most" racers rebuild them about once a year. I sent a set to them for revalve/rebuild, only because I was moving up in spring rates, and ended up selling them after only two weekends. The new owner contacted me complaining before he ever installed them and I told him to send them to A-D for inspection because I was confident that they were in perfect condition. In the end, I ended up footing over a $100 bill for seal replacements, nitrogen fills and something else. This has lowered my overall opinion of their product somewhat.

If "street shocks" can have seals that last tens of thousands of miles, why must a "race shock" have seals which fail after such a short interval. Because you expect to rebuild them frequently doesn't seem like a good enough explaination to me.

I actually have a second set that I was planning to run on my street car, but I've been reconsidering since I can't afford the downtime of having them rebuilt on a regular basis - since I only have one vehicle currently.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This is a very misleading statement. Body material has absolutely nothing to do with longevity. I'm assuming this isn't what you're saying, but it could easily be misconstrued as such.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't mean to bring in body construction material, just pointing out a marked difference be the GC and a "street" shock like the Koni.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When asked, A-D told me that "most" racers rebuild them about once a year. I sent a set to them for revalve/rebuild, only because I was moving up in spring rates, and ended up selling them after only two weekends. The new owner contacted me complaining before he ever installed them and I told him to send them to A-D for inspection because I was confident that they were in perfect condition. In the end, I ended up footing over a $100 bill for seal replacements, nitrogen fills and something else. This has lowered my overall opinion of their product somewhat.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

When I was reading about the GC shocks, about 1/2 the accounts echoed your sentiments, and the other 1/2 were "good." Maybe some people get luckier than others - who knows.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If "street shocks" can have seals that last tens of thousands of miles, why must a "race shock" have seals which fail after such a short interval. Because you expect to rebuild them frequently doesn't seem like a good enough explaination to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to this question too. Dunno.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I actually have a second set that I was planning to run on my street car, but I've been reconsidering since I can't afford the downtime of having them rebuilt on a regular basis - since I only have one vehicle currently.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't blame you.

 

Here's the way I look at it. The only guy on this forum who probably really knows which is better is CRX Lee. But because he's a Koni employee he's probably a wee bit biased (big smiley here) so he is wisely staying away from this discussion.

But, I do not know of any Ground Control employees who frequent this board. I did not see the Ground Control trailer at the Solo 2 Nationals. But Koni is here, there and was at the Runoffs. So on that basis, if no other, I would rather go with Koni because of their support of the aspects of the sport that I am involved in.

If you want something less expensive than the ADs then go with Koni Sports with SPSS valving. If you want to spend about the same than go with the Koni steel monotube (3012???) and if you want to spend more go with the Koni aluminiun monotube (2812???). Whatever valving you like, Koni can provide. Not saying GC can't do likewise. I am just happier dealing with Koni's reputation.

regards,
Alan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here's the way I look at it. The only guy on this forum who probably really knows which is better is CRX Lee. But because he's a Koni employee he's probably a wee bit biased (big smiley here) so he is wisely staying away from this discussion.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want something less expensive than the ADs then go with Koni Sports with SPSS valving. If you want to spend about the same than go with the Koni steel monotube (3012???) and if you want to spend more go with the Koni aluminiun monotube (2812???). </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're going to buy a new set of yellows/sports... rebuild, revalve, shorten, convert to DA, get GC sleeves - you probably spend more money than just getting the 3011 (steel body... 3012's are the alyoominiyum blingers) in the first place.

Thats my next step over the yellows I have now (which feel ffing awesome on track). And with koni support/service being so good.... there's just no reason not to go this route. And they can handle limited street use (driving to/from the track) from what Lee has told me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thats my next step over the yellows I have now (which feel ffing awesome on track). </TD></TR></TABLE>

I just got to try mine out for the first time this weekend at auto-x and I'd have to say the same. ffing awesome. I can't wait to try them out on track.

 

And I'm on stock springs (SPSS valving)... there was a noticeable difference in body roll and balance (subjective) between my car and my student @ shenandoah who also had a stock ITR on OTS yellows. The **** just works.... ride quality sucks *** with the SPSS valving, but who cares?

 

I ran this last season on the ADs and I liked them alot. As some people mentioned, they are extremely light. I bought them used, and of unknown condition. When I got them, one had lost its nitrogen charge. I had them recharged at a local motorcycle shop, and they performed quite well for a bunch of events (and lots of highway miles. yes BB6H22a, I daily drive on them). At about the midway point in the season, I decided they needed rebuilt.

I contacted GC about a rebuild kit. They said they had them ready, but it still took a month to get the parts (a little slow in my opinion). They came with no insructions, but I thought I was a really smart guy; just put the new parts in the way the old ones come out. Wrong. The new parts were substantially different from the old. Enough so that I put them back together wrong. I did alot of head scratching, and called GC a bunch of times (being told that from my description, that I had assembled them correctly). After struggling for a week and a half, I finally happened to call when one of the actual AD assembly guys answered the phone (unheard of I'm told). When I described what I had done, he informed me the shaft seals were backwards.

He also put me in direct contact with the AD guru himself (no, not Jay). I talked this poor guy's ear off one afternoon, and came to understand my shocks alot better. My rebuild was less than effective, and though my season was nearly over, I felt their performance fell off shortly after completing the rebuild. I will be sending them back shortly for a full rebuild by the "experts". I am also contemplating buying a 2nd set (another used set) to ensure I will always have a fresh set for the car.

I had been considering the possibility of going to Konis because of the troubles I have had, but I've decided to stick with the ADs for another season, as I've got alot of changes planned for the car, and I don't need any more at this point. It makes it too hard to sort the car for the start of the year.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and lots of highway miles. yes BB6H22a, I daily drive on them </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm gald to hear that. I should make it clear, that when I stated that the AD shocks shouldn't be driven on the street, or weren't designed for it, I was restating what the people at GC/AD told me, and not purporting my own personal opinion; I don't have an agenda to push my making it sound as though the AD shocks are "un-streetable"; rather, I'm simply putting forward a statement, made by the manufacture of the product.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> My rebuild was less than effective </TD></TR></TABLE>

You really need to have them tested on a shock dyno immediately after rebuilding, that is the single biggest issue and misconception about DIY shock rebuilding is that once back together you really don't know if they are working properly, they are matched, that you didn't get a wee bit of shop towel lint, dust spec, etc. left inside one and so on. No matter how good a mechanic or **** retentive assembler you are. I could go on and on about a XXX, XXX past C Mod national champion who insists on rebuilding his own (insert shock brand here) with his own custom designs and bugging us for testing at Solo II Nationals but the short answer is that they almost never actually work and he just can't understand it ("Must be something wrong with the dyno").

Without being able to immediately be able to throw it on a dyno and get a quantifying result then you really just don't know how they are. Mono-tubes are a bit more consistent normally than a twin-tube in plain, rote reassembly but still you can't know and moving it by hand is of absolutely zero value, especially on a mono-tube.

That is the primary reason why Koni does not sell rebuild kits and parts, simply because most people don't have access to real shock dynos and our units are even more intricate in assembly than the other similar brands. Our guys in our shop who do this day in and day out for up to 15 years still need to use a dyno and may need to have a shock apart two or three times if one is being finicky but without a dyno, a DIYer would simply never know. Probably not a good area to have no quality control testing.


Edit: Changed a strong description of a less than pleasant fellow because someone was offended that he thought I was deriding someone else whom I wasn't even talking about. Happy now?


Modified by CRX Lee at 2:51 AM 12/8/2004


Modified by CRX Lee at 2:52 AM 12/8/2004

 

I've used both on the Civic EF for STS. They are both very good. The Koni (especially the SPSS) is my preference. Even for someone like me that can purchase either at a reduced price, the new SM Civic we are building will have Konis... it's a performance decision and not because I'm getting them free or something. The AD is a great shock, but you have to know what you are doing to make them work.... and even then they aren't necessarily better than the SPSS Koni.

Run the SPSS Koni unless you just want to be different.... and then prepare to spend some time getting them sorted out.

We offer Ground Control and Koni products on our website if you'd like to check them out.

Chris Shenefield

 

Threadjacking:

Can anyone quickly whip out a price breakdown of Koni's offerings? I'm having trouble trying to find a decent coilover suspension for my 240SX that has some technical merit to it, or isn't a "drift suspension".