I was thinking of getting a set of advanced design socks for my integra. I currently have koni yellows in the car. Anyone here use them? are they worth the money?

what other brands of shocks out there are good for road racing and high spring rates ..

 

Why change brands when you can get the Koni shocks rebuilt/revalved/ shortened or whatever you need done to them?

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=199319
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=64392
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=529819&page=2
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=267544

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95tegLSS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was thinking of getting a set of advanced design socks for my integra. I currently have koni yellows in the car. Anyone here use them? are they worth the money?

what other brands of shocks out there are good for road racing and high spring rates .. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I use them. They are great, well made and have separate adjusters for bump and rebound which you can access without getting under the car. They are machined aluminum mono-tube (nitrogen pressurized) with large shaft diameter. The large shaft diameter displaces more oil as it enters or exits the body for a small movement which is what you get with stiffer spring rates and this makes the damper have better control than a damper with a thinner shaft diameter. They will build them for whatever spring rate you want, and re-valving/re-building is only $50/damper. Only downside I have found is that they make noise when not set to full stiff and the rather poor customer service. At $400 each I could not find a better product. In that price range (1600 for dampers plus 210 for springs) the only other one I would consider is Tein RS for still street-able, or Mugen or Tein N1 if you want a race (as in too stiff for street) damper.

Here is a pic comparing themto the stock ITR front and rear dampers:

 

a couple people I know in ITA swear by them. Koni yellows are good but I think these might be a step up. Just my opinion though.

s

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a couple people I know in ITA swear by them. Koni yellows are good but I think these might be a step up. Just my opinion though.

s</TD></TR></TABLE>

I switched to my Adavnce Designs after I had my Konis rebuilt and revalved. Never looked back. Performance and value has been great. Basicly, for 400 bucks a corner you get a incredible shock. My only complaint would be a wider range of bump adjustment. Other than that? nothin....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95tegLSS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone here use them?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I own two sets. I'm extremely happy with them


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95tegLSS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are they worth the money?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I tend to think that if you're asking the question, the answer is no. Does having independent compression and rebound damping mean anything to you?

For their price range I think they're the best option. - and I feel there's a dropoff in functionality to anything else in the sub-$1600 category.

Despite board rumors to the contrary, I had a very good experience with AD when I called to first find out what the damping settings on my shocks were (I wasn't the original purchaser) and then again to get them rebuilt/revalved.

My personal second choice would be the Buddy Club Racing Spec, which R&D has on sale right now for $1425 - https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=734809

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
They are machined aluminum mono-tube (nitrogen pressurized) with large shaft diameter. The large shaft diameter displaces more oil as it enters or exits the body for a small movement which is what you get with stiffer spring rates and this makes the damper have better control than a damper with a thinner shaft diameter. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Just as a technical point, true mono-tubes are not displacement shocks like twin-tubes are as they generate both rebound and compression forces at the piston instead of the compression being generated by metering the amount of oil displaced by the piston entering the cylinder.

Because of this, having a large rod diameter on a mono-tube is not an advantage and is actually a disadvantage in two ways. Having a larger rod enter the body does displace more fluid meaning that the divider piston that seperates the gas chamber from the oil chamber must travel a greater distance so the divider piston seal is subjected to more travel and potentially faster wear. Also having a larger diameter piston (not rod) can certainly be an advantage of a mono-tube because it has a greater area with which it can generate more force if the valving is up to snuff. Having a larger rod diameter actually reduces the exposed area of the piston (exposed piston area= entire piston area - rod area) for generating rebound force. On a reservoir-less mono-tube, you would prefer to have as small a rod as possible so long as it has sufficient strength to handle whatever sideloads that it might be exposed to without bending. Additionally, if you see a strut with what appears to be a huge chrome rod nearly as big as the housing, what you are actually looking at is an inverted cylinder body and the actual piston rod will be much smaller diameter and hidden inside the strut housing.

On a twin tube shock or a mono-tube that has an external reservoir where the compression forces are generated (still functionally a twin-tube), having a larger rod can be an advantage because it does create more displacement for a better opportunity to generate more force. Look at many reservoir shocks like JRZ for example and you will see a pretty larger rod thus helping to displace and flow more fluid to the reservoir for metering. Although it is generally better to not have the complications (signal lag, weight and mounting) if you can avoid it, if you need to use a reservoir to generate forces then using a bigger rod can reduce the inherent lag time in response although the weight goes up. That is not to say that on these shocks the bigger rod is always better as that makes the assumption that all else (design, valving, etc.) is equal and in reality it is very rarely equal. The old adage "It's not how big it is, it's how you use it" definately applies here as technical quality and capability definately outweigh sheer displacement volume.

The answer is that regardless of mono-tube or twin-tube design, you need a good consistent, responsive damper with as much real adjustment range as possible and appropriate valving for your needs and within your price range of course.

Just a point of technical clarification and not taking hits at Advanced Design or any other brands.

 

I know 2 road racers who were unhappy with AD shocks because the fronts kept blowing. But, I also know more than 2 road racers who are extremely happy with the AD shocks.
As with just about good product, you can find a few people that don't like them and a bunch of people who do. In the end, the AD stuff has a good rep and appears to work well.

But there's nothing wrong with the Konis you already have. You can get them shortened (fronts only, dont need to do the rears), revalved, and converted to double adjustable for around $1000ish for the set. If you leave them single adj its about $600. Note that I'm pulling those $$$ figures out of my ***, but its pretty close.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know 2 road racers who were unhappy with AD shocks because the fronts kept blowing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This was my fear when I bought them. Despite the rumors, they did 20 events this year and about 9-10k street driven miles (w/ 650/800 springs ) and are still in excellent shape. I'm sad to see them go, but I know they're going to a good home so its all good.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Watkinsm3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This was my fear when I bought them. Despite the rumors, they did 20 events this year and about 9-10k street driven miles (w/ 650/800 springs ) and are still in excellent shape. I'm sad to see them go, but I know they're going to a good home so its all good.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You don't do much curb banging in autoX. Or do you?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You don't do much curb banging in autoX. Or do you? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, I've been told by more than one person that GC doesn't recommend driving ADs on the street. I've been racking my brain trying to come up with a street situation that is harder on a shock than banging off a gator at 90 mph.

Andy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Actually, I've been told by more than one person that GC doesn't recommend driving ADs on the street. I've been racking my brain trying to come up with a street situation that is harder on a shock than banging off a gator at 90 mph.

Andy
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Potholes, salt, grime, overloading the car with krap while moving...just off the top of my head...

 

Gator, pothole... what's the difference?

I would consider daily driving a shock to be much harder. I'd put a whole racing season's worth of wear on them in a couple weeks. I don't know what the wear items of a shock are though - and why things like seals may be different on a "race" shock than a street one.

Then again... how many companies don't add the "for racing use only" disclaimer to their products now.

 

i drove shenefield's hybrid on AD shocks, didn't like them. the car felt "dead" and the farting noises from the shocks was a bit distracting. i have to question the valving that the AD shocks come with as well. from what i gather from their vague literature, the shocks all come with roughly the same base valving regardless of application. (come on, a universal shock?) not a problem if that valving was based on the piston velocities and weight of your particular application, less then ideal if it were not. of course, a revalve is cheap....

about the noise the shocks make, i can't beleive that everything is working 100% if there is sufficient internal movement in the shock to make noise.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have to question the valving that the AD shocks come with as well. from what i gather from their vague literature, the shocks all come with roughly the same base valving regardless of application. (come on, a universal shock?) not a problem if that valving was based on the piston velocities and weight of your particular application, less then ideal if it were not. of course, a revalve is cheap....

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Way to spread misinformation

AD shocks are not universal. They're custom-made to the requirements you give them.

 

when i was helping a friend make decisions about a damper setup for his sentra we looked into the AD's. you ordered the shock by giving them the dimensions you needed (free length, compressed length, etc.) and then had to go through a process of developing a bracket sytem that allowed it to bolt to your intended platform. (which btw, was not included in the $400 price tag) nowhere in this conversation was any mention made to what spring rates the car was going to use, what corner weights the car had, or what type of racing the car would compete in. that's all pretty important stuff if you're going to pick a valving. i see on their website now that they have more specific applications. maybe things have changed.

AD also comments on their vast exprience in shock design and valving selection. all this expereince and they can't get a race damper that's quiet? if they can't get a simple thing like that right, how sure are you that the valving will be right? sure, a lot of people have won on them. a lot of people have won using ots illumina's with 900lb springs too.

misinformation or not, that's what i got. i'm not pressuring anyone into buying one thing over another. if someone is genuinely concerned about the valving they can perform the necessary research to find out what the AD's got. right now my opinions about the valving are just that, mine. i'll stand by it until i see some real world data about the valving.

nate

 

Hey Nate, About Shenefield's ADs. They took them off of his civic and put them on Kugler's car so he could test them out. The both drove the car and it was about 50 degrees out. Chris said they felt so much better on Allen's car. Allen's response (which I'm sure you can respect)? He said the car never had that much grip before and they felt great. Never more grip? on asphalt at 50 degrees?

The difference I can see? Tires. I think the ADs might of had too much valving for the street tires on his civic. On my car as well, it definitly felt better with the race tires on it. When I daily drove it, I had to turn everything as soft as I could.

Just some thoughts. I know we've discussed this before. I wish you could have drove my car at an event.

EDIT : Thought... maybe the whole street tire vs race tire is part of their recomendation that shocks not be used for the street? just thinking...

 

matt, you're probably on to something with the valving being too stiff compression wise for the street tires. funny that not many other shocks seem to have that same problem. also funny that the shock worked better on a car that had a different weight, different spring rate, and different shaft velocities. one might think that would reinforce my earlier statements.

as far as kugler's car feeling better on the ad's, when i looked under his car at nats. he had tokico's. when i talked to him about the suspension setup he told me the shocks were what he used on his previous car and that they were several years old already. what i'd like to see is someone do a back-to-back against some DA koni's, jrz's, moton's, etc. some dyno graphs would be nice too.

your gsr scares me. i would have to drive at half throttle everywhere.

nate

ps. uhg. can you think what's gonna happen if kugler gets _faster_? those poor vw drivers.... i don't know how well the dx civic will do in DSP.... and if they put them all on the same line? :drool:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">matt, you're probably on to something with the valving being too stiff compression wise for the street tires. funny that not many other shocks seem to have that same problem. also funny that the shock worked better on a car that had a different weight, different spring rate, and different shaft velocities. one might think that would reinforce my earlier statements. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not possible they were adjusted differently? There are a lot of ***** to turn on a DA.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's not possible they were adjusted differently? There are a lot of ***** to turn on a DA.</TD></TR></TABLE>

chris was using them at full soft. if they were adjusted differently, they could have only gone stiffer. not very often you find a damper that is severely overdamped for a street tire like the azenis and underdamped for hoosiers. not saying it's impossible, but definitely curious.

nate

 

I should have been a little more clear.. this cfar is being built for the track .. (i'm also building a 89 CRX for a friend at the same time). the only street driving these cars will see is two and from the track untill we can afford trailers.

The reason this came up was he keps asking me for suspention ideas. I kept telling him to go with the CG and koni set-up, but he wanted to know what was "better" and all I could think of at the time was the AD shocks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

chris was using them at full soft. if they were adjusted differently, they could have only gone stiffer. not very often you find a damper that is severely overdamped for a street tire like the azenis and underdamped for hoosiers. not saying it's impossible, but definitely curious.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its very strange... I would usually run the settings pretty soft on the ADs on my car though. I know the ADs have a ton low speed bump damping... Maybe that has something to do with it compared to the Konis? How are your Konis on low speed? Its all guessing at this point. When I start to get grasp on something technical 40 others things come out of nowhere to properly confuse me. BACK TO STOCK FOR ME!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Watkinsm3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
When I start to get grasp on something technical 40 others things come out of nowhere to properly confuse me. BACK TO STOCK FOR ME!</TD></TR></TABLE>

amen on that brotha! i'm in your boat, and i'm currently trying to go back to stock. ahh, the simplicity

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Watkinsm3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know the ADs have a ton low speed bump damping... Maybe that has something to do with it compared to the Konis? How are your Konis on low speed? Its all guessing at this point.</TD></TR></TABLE>
lee will have to jump in here. all i know is that i can use any point on the adjustment range at either end of the car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Watkinsm3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I start to get grasp on something technical 40 others things come out of nowhere to properly confuse me. BACK TO STOCK FOR ME!</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol. like picking tire size, front swaybar, alignment, and trick shock valving in stock isn't hard too. you should try doing what i do. operate continuosly in the properly confused state. in the words of scott, "wheee!"

nate