iiilgsrlll

Here is the thread from last weekend.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1003217

Fast forward to today. I'm driving up to Torrance to visit Shawn Church for some fine tuning on the EMS. About 2 miles from his exit my car starts sputtering then loss of power and then dies completely. I think in my mind "NOT THE DAMN COIL AGAIN!!"

So I call AAA and tow the car over to Church Automotive. Shawn takes me over to the Honda Service center to buy a new coil. I replaced the fried coil and fires right up. So Shawn proceeds to tune the EMS for the next 2 hours or so focusing solely on idle and decel. He is able to get the car running perfect. I'm on my way home on the 5 South in Oceanside and it dies AGAIN!!

Below is what's happening to all of my ignition coils after a long drive. (50+ miles). I have cracked 3 coils this week including 2 in the same day. One of them was bought new from the dealer. I am getting very frustrated by getting stranded every single time and having to call AAA for a tow. What's the problem here? Is it my 1020 box? I need help because I'm running out of distributors to rape the coils from. I am running all stock ignition components with the exception of NGK blue wires which have 1200 miles on them.

BTW, just wanted to thank Shawn Church for doing a wonderful job on tuning the AEM and shuttling me around town to grab parts and food. The car runs flawless now...well, when the coil doesn't die anyway. This was a follow-up fine tune and was done free of charge. Excellent customer service.

Notice the crack on my first blown coil.



They all bulge up at the top after they self destruct.




Modified by iiilgsrlll at 10:03 PM 10/2/2004


Modified by iiilgsrlll at 11:09 PM 10/2/2004


Modified by iiilgsrlll at 12:02 AM 10/3/2004

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

This is seriously disturbing. Integra-Modder had a similar bad experience with the AEM EMS, try contacting him. I however, have not had any distributor issues with the AEM EMS at all after a year of use. Although I did just replace my distributor because the ignitor went, but it was 75k miles, 4 years old.

You should call AEM about this. At the very least replace your 1020 box with a newer one. Your running the latest firmware right?

psileepR

that sounds very wierd. ill talk to Shawn about that next time i see him.

Shawn gets a from me. Maybe thats why we send all our customers to him for tuning

We are the shop right in front of his GL with your car troubles. i would call AEM at the least to see what they think

liveforphysics

Your coil signal duration is too long. After the coil saturates, keeping it switched only makes excessive heat.

Why the signal is too long I do not knowk, but that is the cause of the failier. I would look in the settings of your standalone for a spark rise time duration time value.

HRTuning

Damnnnnn dude... Not again! Get that ish taken care of right away! Going through coils like it's candy...

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by psileepR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that sounds very wierd. ill talk to Shawn about that next time i see him.

Shawn gets a from me. Maybe thats why we send all our customers to him for tuning

We are the shop right in front of his GL with your car troubles. i would call AEM at the least to see what they think</TD></TR></TABLE>

Were you the one who tested my other coil for me and said you have never seen one completely die? Thanks for doing that.

I've left AEM a message and I can assure you I'll be very persistent about it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is seriously disturbing. Integra-Modder had a similar bad experience with the AEM EMS, try contacting him. I however, have not had any distributor issues with the AEM EMS at all after a year of use. Although I did just replace my distributor because the ignitor went, but it was 75k miles, 4 years old.

You should call AEM about this. At the very least replace your 1020 box with a newer one. Your running the latest firmware right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hope they are able to replace the box. I don't feel too comfortable with one of the first gen boxes especially since I lurk on the AEM boards and the older boxes seem to have the most problems. I am running 1.03 right now. I tried upgrading to 1.11 and that didn't go too well. My car wouldn't start even though I followed all of their instructions. It also made this weird light jack hammer noise when the EMS is switched on during the fuel pump priming. I thought it was my spark plugs but I disconnected the distributor and it was still there. Something must be wrong with the unit.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liveforphysics &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your coil signal duration is too long. After the coil saturates, keeping it switched only makes excessive heat.

Why the signal is too long I do not knowk, but that is the cause of the failier. I would look in the settings of your standalone for a spark rise time duration time value.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is there such a setting in the AEM EMS? Would the physical position of the distributor matter since timing is adjusted from within the EMS itself? The dizzy is currently offset more towards the front of the car.

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HRTuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damnnnnn dude... Not again! Get that ish taken care of right away! Going through coils like it's candy... </TD></TR></TABLE>

I am hoping I get the MSD stuff by mid week. Each coil is like a $80 lollipop.

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iiilgsrlll &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Is there such a setting in the AEM EMS? Would the physical position of the distributor matter since timing is adjusted from within the EMS itself? The dizzy is currently offset more towards the front of the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually there is. It may have something to do with the Dwell and cam/crank sensors. Call AEM about it. Run through the wizards too to make sure the right options are selected for your car.

psileepR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iiilgsrlll &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Were you the one who tested my other coil for me and said you have never seen one completely die? Thanks for doing that.

I've left AEM a message and I can assure you I'll be very persistent about it.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup NP. Keep us updated.

Bump for more exposure

SiRkid

1010 has a prob with coil 4 iirc...weird.

they shoudl give you a new box

Agtronic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liveforphysics &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your coil signal duration is too long. After the coil saturates, keeping it switched only makes excessive heat.

Why the signal is too long I do not knowk, but that is the cause of the failier. I would look in the settings of your standalone for a spark rise time duration time value.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is exactly what I was going to say. I don't know the AEM system at all, but look for dwell or something similar.

integra-modder

I cant remember right now and am not in front of my other computer. I believe either the coil dwell or one of the coil settings needs to be adjusted. Call one of the AEM techs, they should be able to tell you if you get through to them

I got tired of the stock ignition system and bought a MSD 6AL with a Blaster SS coil.

xci_ed6

I had a similar problem w/ a aem ems when working on the FSAE team. The ignition outputs were inverted, so instead of pulsing on for a spark, they pulsed off. You still get a spark because the magnetic field collapses, but youy will fry coils from running almost constant DC to them.

edit: it was fixed by building an external box which inverted those outputs.

Joseph Davis

liveforphysics
krustindumm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integra-modder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I got tired of the stock ignition system and bought a MSD 6AL with a Blaster SS coil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You get no gains off the 6AL, lots of time you get losses. The Blaster coil is a great unit, though, if you want to upgrade.

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krustindumm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had a similar problem w/ a aem ems when working on the FSAE team. The ignition outputs were inverted, so instead of pulsing on for a spark, they pulsed off. You still get a spark because the magnetic field collapses, but youy will fry coils from running almost constant DC to them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmm.....can you elaborate further on what I need to check on my car to ensure that is not the case?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integra-modder &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I cant remember right now and am not in front of my other computer. I believe either the coil dwell or one of the coil settings needs to be adjusted. Call one of the AEM techs, they should be able to tell you if you get through to them

I got tired of the stock ignition system and bought a MSD 6AL with a Blaster SS coil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think I found the setting for the dwell setting. The coil dwell factor is set at 40 right now. I wonder how much I should lower it by.

xci_ed6

youy could probably check with a noid light, hook it in place of your coil and if the light is on and blinks off you are having that problem, if it is off and blinks on then look elsewhere.

I can't remember how we diagnosed the problem.

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krustindumm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">youy could probably check with a noid light, hook it in place of your coil and if the light is on and blinks off you are having that problem, if it is off and blinks on then look elsewhere.

I can't remember how we diagnosed the problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmm.....I think I remember seeing a Coil#1 Off/On parameter which would actually show when its on or off. Is this done with the motor running or off?


I also turned my dwell setting down from 40 (default) to 20. Now only time will tell if my coil takes a **** again. I did one full 2nd gear pull and it felt ultra smooth throughout the rpm band. I wonder if that change had something to do with it?

liveforphysics

A coil with a properly timed signal pulse will provide a much more reliable spark. If you are interested in knowing what the ideal rise time for you coil is, measure the impedance and inductance and the voltage being switched across the coil. I am ASSumeing the numeric value in the EMS is mS. If you provide me with the above data on the coil, I can provide you with the ideal rise time.

PS: if you have the settings inverted like the fsae guy mentioned, turning down the dwell will just melt the coil faster. Look at coil signal with an O scope if possible. It will tell you exactly whats going on.

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liveforphysics &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A coil with a properly timed signal pulse will provide a much more reliable spark. If you are interested in knowing what the ideal rise time for you coil is, measure the impedance and inductance and the voltage being switched across the coil. I am ASSumeing the numeric value in the EMS is mS. If you provide me with the above data on the coil, I can provide you with the ideal rise time.

PS: if you have the settings inverted like the fsae guy mentioned, turning down the dwell will just melt the coil faster. Look at coil signal with an O scope if possible. It will tell you exactly whats going on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have no idea what the numeric value means in the EMS. It doesn't have the type of value next to the number. I wish I could measure all of that for you but do not have the tools necessary at this time. I find it kind of interesting that the "invert" option is unavailabe in certain EMS revisions. Maybe AEM discovered something they're not telling us about.

iiilgsrlll

After scouring my map from top to bottom and comparing to the turbo 310 basemap I think I might be on to something.

Under the crank/cam sensor wizard the Honda/Acura distributor option IS NOT selected...meaning there is no green check mark on this option on my map while it is selected on the basemap. Can someone confirm not selecting this setting would cause coils to fry?

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by illgsrlll &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Under the crank/cam sensor wizard the Honda/Acura distributor option IS NOT selected...meaning there is no green check mark on this option on my map while it is selected on the basemap. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sometimes they just dont appear to be checked when they really are. If you view the coil dwell template while selecting the right choice in this wizard, the coil dwell tables prob wont change.

AEM pisses me off. Their base maps should obviously be designed for the cars their are intended for! It wouldn't surprise me if the coil output was backwards as Ive seen other base map outputs inverted too. The GSR IAB output ("Fuel 8" on a 30-1010) is inverted in the base map such that its on the wrong intake runners all the time. Real smooth...

iiilgsrlll

Its funny you mention the IAB's. I cannot get the IAB's to work and neither can Shawn. We tried using the default values for IDLE3/4 but still acts funny. It'll open at idle if we set the value lower but won't during normal operation. Do you know what the values should be so that they do open at 5500 rpm like they're supposed to?

Whether I select the right template or not...the values don't appeared to have changed. UNLESS, it does something in the background in regards to signal inversion. The only reason that popped into my head is because I saw an option for it(inversion) in the newer 1.11 revision. However I can't get my car to start with 1.11 but that's a problem for another day.

JDogg

when you change any of the values set by the wizards the "check" will go away, so when you sync the timing, the check will go away in the wizard b/c the ign sync has changed.

almost all the cars i do have an msd installed before they get the ems so i havent seen this problem.

look in ignition_advanced ignition_coil dwell

lower the coil dwell factor some, i know aem normally sets the dwell to achieve maximum spark energy... so its likley that they could have too much dwell in there.

the way dwell is calculated is as follows

it takes the number from the dwell vs rpm table X dwell vs batt volts X coil dwell factor. that tells you how many uS of dwell time you have

dwell vs rpm is a raw number, dwell vs batt volts is a percentage, coil dwell factor is a multiplier.

on the honda wizard you get 1500uS of dwell at 8000 rpms at 14 volts

max dwell is below 4000 rpms, is 2700uS at 14 volts

iiilgsrlll

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when you change any of the values set by the wizards the "check" will go away, so when you sync the timing, the check will go away in the wizard b/c the ign sync has changed.

almost all the cars i do have an msd installed before they get the ems so i havent seen this problem.

look in ignition_advanced ignition_coil dwell

lower the coil dwell factor some, i know aem normally sets the dwell to achieve maximum spark energy... so its likley that they could have too much dwell in there.

the way dwell is calculated is as follows

it takes the number from the dwell vs rpm table X dwell vs batt volts X coil dwell factor. that tells you how many uS of dwell time you have

dwell vs rpm is a raw number, dwell vs batt volts is a percentage, coil dwell factor is a multiplier.

on the honda wizard you get 1500uS of dwell at 8000 rpms at 14 volts

max dwell is below 4000 rpms, is 2700uS at 14 volts</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am switching to an external coil this week. Screw the OEM. I'm sick of blowing them up. Would the EMS function properly if I just installed the external MSD coil with no amplifier box?

I just got done playing around with the wizard a few minutes ago and its just as you said. Once I sync the timing the selection in the Cam/Crank wizard goes away. At first I was a little confused as to why my car ran like crap on startup but then I checked my timing and noticed it was off by like 10 degrees.

As for dwell time: At the default setting of 40 the dwell uS at idle was 4600. I cut the multiplier down to 20 which resulted in about ~2650 uS of dwell time. Is this a good value at idle?

Thanks for the explanation on how the dwell time is derived.

integra-modder

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Sometimes they just dont appear to be checked when they really are. If you view the coil dwell template while selecting the right choice in this wizard, the coil dwell tables prob wont change.

AEM pisses me off. Their base maps should obviously be designed for the cars their are intended for! It wouldn't surprise me if the coil output was backwards as Ive seen other base map outputs inverted too. The GSR IAB output ("Fuel 8" on a 30-1010) is inverted in the base map such that its on the wrong intake runners all the time. Real smooth...</TD></TR></TABLE>

share the wealth mucka