Achenar

So I experienced disaster yesterday.
Driving on the highway I started hearing strange vibrations.
Soon after I heard a loud THUNK.

I lost power steering, AC, and my battery light came on. I pulled off the highway, and my motor died. I had just enough momentum to pull up into a gas station.

My crankshaft pulley was GONE. Well, it was there, on the splash shield.
crankshaft pulley bolt snapped in half. The key was nowhere to be found, but the groove on the crankshaft is totally stripped on the right side of the groove (looking at the end of the crankshaft).

The piece of the bolt in the crankshaft can probably be backed out, but is there any hope for salvaging / repairing the keyslot? Or am I doomed to require a new crankshaft?

And wtf can cause this to happen? Over-tightened belts?

-a

Luserkid

Was the timing belt done resently? If its a stock motor thats really odd to see. If its boosted or built motor probably had vibration issues.

Either way we would need a pic to really say if the crank is saveable. Weither it is or not its going to need to be pulled.

Achenar

I replaced the timing belt ~40k miles ago.

The last thing I did was put a new AC belt on (old one was too loose, new one was too tight). I had to really work hard just to get the AC belt to fit over the pulleys. It is definitely possible that the AC belt was too tight, but It just seems bizzare that it would have caused this. I mean it was tight but it wasn't king-kong tight.

-a

rmcdaniels

That shouldn't have caused it, I tension mine to King Kong tight all the time to drive a supercharger, it just makes the belts wear out faster. You could try an interference-fit pulley like the Fluidampr, it doesn't rely so much on the bolt or the key to hold it in place, but it has to be pressed onto the crankshaft with a special tool.

Or you could just pop that crank out of there and pop in a new one, it'll give you something to do so you don't get bored with all your free time on this 3-day weekend

Achenar

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That shouldn't have caused it, I tension mine to King Kong tight all the time to drive a supercharger, it just makes the belts wear out faster. You could try an interference-fit pulley like the Fluidampr, it doesn't rely so much on the bolt or the key to hold it in place, but it has to be pressed onto the crankshaft with a special tool.

Or you could just pop that crank out of there and pop in a new one, it'll give you something to do so you don't get bored with all your free time on this 3-day weekend </TD></TR></TABLE>

It is looking like this might be the case. Well, I am picking up a new (to me) RSX-S tomorrow, so I should have plenty of time to get the B16 back up and running, lol.

Time to start reading up on rebuilds.

-a

Achenar

The Fluidampr pulley looks intriguing. It looks like it might be the economic solution, as well as save me a LOT of time.

Must read up some more on this.

-a

rmcdaniels

I've been using one for a couple of years now with no problems. I also just ordered a new custom crank pulley made that will be interference-fit. It's fairly standard in the GM world where crank pulleys are typically also harmonic balancers.

lotus elise

you're in san diego? come up to temecula and ill sell you one of my b16a cranks for 70 bucks picked up tommorrow or monday

Johnny Ricer

Our crank pulleys dont act as our Harmonic balancers?

lotus elise

also another 20 bucks and you have yourself a new crank pulley if you need it..........i had these ******* b16 blocks lying around since i started my k build

also since you dont have a car i can deliver if you're not TOO far from north county.if you are i ask for gas money and ill deliver it to your house

cant beat that! damn! this sites helpful

lotus elise

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soundpsych &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our crank pulleys dont act as our Harmonic balancers?</TD></TR></TABLE>

they DO

Achenar

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lotus elise &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you're in san diego? come up to temecula and ill sell you one of my b16a cranks for 70 bucks picked up tommorrow or monday </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sent PM

-a

smileycvc

Did the timing belt slip off?

HiProfile

A different crank would be easier - you'd have to remove yours anyways to grind a new keyway into it, then either grind a new slot in the pulley, or guess what your timing is set at...

rmcdaniels

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soundpsych &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our crank pulleys dont act as our Harmonic balancers?</TD></TR></TABLE>

They don't, the term refers to pulleys with built-in counterweights that offset harmonics from engines that are not internally balanced, like a Chevy 400 CID V8. Honda motors are internally balanced, they don't use a harmonic damper. A lot of people call any pulley on the front of the motor a harmonic damper though, just because a lot of them used to be because some V8's and V6's, due to their geometry, require external harmonic damping. Some engines, like inline 6's, due to their geometry, don't produce significant harmonics and require no damping. Inline 4's produce harmonics, but they can be dealt with via internal balancing and that's exactly how Honda deals with it.

The other popular misconception is that they are torsional dampers, this myth is propagated by lots of people, some of whom should know better. I've been told by more than one famous person on H-T that my 95mm long-rod raised-pin stroker setup would snap my crank due to torsional vibration, and here we are, years later, with many hard track miles gone by, and my crank is fine. The thin layer of rubber in some OEM crank pulleys is there to act as a NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness) isolator. Honda uses it to make natural noises and vibrations from the engine less noticeable to the driver, giving the engine a smoother feel. The elastomer in a Honda crank pulley is inadequate in size and quality to act as an effective torsional damper at any rate, take apart an ATI Super Damper and you'll see what is necessary to be an effective torsional damper. Torsional dampers are generally not necessary in Honda motors due to their design, that's why so many Honda crank pulleys don't even have the rubber strip, the most famous being the Japanese N1 pulleys, but many domestic D-series motors from low-end Civics are also solid. That's not to say that a torsional damper is never necessary, if I was making 600+ WHP and turning my motor to 10K, then I might need one, but I'm not, so I don't. The only way to really determine if it is a problem for a given motor is to bolt it to a torsional converter (a big expensive piece of test equipment) and analyze the signals that it produces, anything else is pure guesswork.

One more time, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Ford, Chrysler, VW, and others make millions of cars with solid crank pulleys, no harmonic or torsional dampers of any kind, and their crankshafts by and large stay in one piece. The little layer of rubber in some Honda crank pulleys is not going to save your crankshaft.


If you don't believe me, try to find any information from Honda that says that their crank pulleys are torsional dampers used to protect the crankshaft from snapping. Please let me know if you find it.

Of course companies that sell torsional dampers will tell you that you need one, but they would be stupid to pass up the massive aftermarket performance product profits and just concentrate on the small group of racing motors that actually need their product.

Achenar

Picture time!


Here you can see the damage done to the lower timing belt cover, as my belts pretty much shredded it. You can kinda see the damage done to the crank, and you can definitely see that bolt lodged in there.


Here is a closeup of the same pic. You can see that nice gash taken out of the keyway.


This shows the extent of the damage. Maybe a key will still fit in there?


The other part of the bolt.


There is a LITTLE gash in the crank pulley also.



As well as a little crack

-a

Achenar

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smileycvc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did the timing belt slip off? </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the timing belt, amazingly, seems to have remained perfectly in place and did not skip.

-a

lotus elise

in your pm you said you just wanted to get rid of the car?

do you have a steady hand?

at work one of my fellow techs drilled out the bolt half and kinda ghteooted it at a customers request.........maybe uf you get a new key and a bolt from honda you could sell it but make sure you tell the buyer becuase thats a very easy thing to see

lotus elise

otherwise on your way to buying that DC5 hit me up 90 bucks and i have a crank and damber for ya

Achenar

I would definitely rather fix it the right way. Do you think I could get away with a new key in that slot in the condition it's in?

-a

rmcdaniels

There's no reason for the timing belt to slip, its drive gear is totally separate and has its own key.

That crank actually doesn't look that bad, it looks like the pulley took most of the damage. I can't see form the pictures if it just scuffed the end of the crank or if it removed significant material. I'd put a micrometer on the undamaged section under the cam drive cog and compare it to the outer part. If they are the same I'd try the Fluidampr. If they are significantly different, then another crank may be the answer.

lotus elise

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rmcdaniels &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's no reason for the timing belt to slip, its drive gear is totally separate and has its own key.

That crank actually doesn't look that bad, it looks like the pulley took most of the damage. I can't see form the pictures if it just scuffed the end of the crank or if it removed significant material. I'd put a micrometer on the undamaged section under the cam drive cog and compare it to the outer part. If they are the same I'd try the Fluidampr. If they are significantly different, then another crank may be the answer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that pully is gone for sure but it looking closely at the pics you can see where there is a lip all the wa around on the crank from where the damper used to be look closely like i said he might be able to get away with a ghetto fix but it will bite him in the ***

Achenar

I think the discoloration on the end is from the grime on my filthy hands feeling around on it ... it appears to be unscathed.

-a

lotus elise

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Achenar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the discoloration on the end is from the grime on my filthy hands feeling around on it ... it appears to be unscathed.

-a</TD></TR></TABLE>

so its not a lip? my bad

well hopefully you can get that bolt out and throw that pulley on that RMC was talking about

rmcdaniels

Yeah, I couldn't tell from the pics if that was a gouge or if it's just shiny from getting scuffed. I'd still put a micrometer on it, one of the cheap digital ones from an auto parts store would be sufficient to tell you if it's a problem.