descartesfool

We have a new all time Champ racing brake fluid!!!!

Project Mu G/FOUR 335



Dry boiling point of 335 degrees C or 635 degrees F which is the highest I know of and a wet boiling point of 221 degrees C or 430 degrees F, second only to Castrol SRF.


NOTE: PRICES BELOW ARE FROM 2005 LIST

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1 (pre 2006) ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING 660 ($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- QUADRIGA/PROSPEED GS610 ($14.99/16 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 ($45.00/1.0L 33.8 OZ)

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING 660
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- QUADRIGA/PROSPEED GS610
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF


Some fluids on the manufacturer's web site did not specify wet boiling point, so I used the relevant DOT 3 value.

Water absorption:
DOT 3: This brake fluid has a glycol base with additives. It is clear to amber in color. It is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs moisture) and has a minimum dry boiling point of 401F (205C) minimum and a minimum wet boiling point of 284F (140C). It will absorb 1 to 2 percent of water per year depending on climate and operating conditions.

Looks like Motul 600 is still the value champ for high performance, although the price for the Quadriga I found on their web site makes it a good value as well. Castrol SRF remains as always the Wet boiling champ by a 88 degrees. I don't know of any other new ones.

PS: added a few updates to the list from manufacturer's most recent data on their web sites. Several changes from the 2005 list. Some manufacturers have errors on their web sites where the degrees C values does not match the degrees F value. Take your pick!

.1type.

great brake fuild we sell it at the shop i work for and run it in one of cars...

descartesfool

Here is a link to the Project Mu brake fluid for $42/litre equivalent to $21/0.5 litre which is the size that most other fluids are sold in except for Castrol SRF which is also sold by the litre.

http://www.daliracing.com/v666...=1002

.1type.

nice...my buddy know the guy that owns that company...

acrocat

might pick up some of this for next season. anyone using it?

SequenceGarage

I've been boiling brakes like crazy this season using the FORD stuff, maybe i'll take it up a notch and try this. Thanks for the comparison.

nsxtasy

If you're looking for a place to buy Project Mu brake fluid, from a vendor which DOESN'T have a huge number of complaints from customers, here are more options:

ProjectNissan (TX) - $45 with free shipping
Drift Factory (CA) - $45
AMZ Performance (NJ) - $49.99
STIkiller (SC) - $50
Integrity Auto (CA) - $50

Project Mu's website is here.

nello a.

^ of which vendor are you speaking ?

Johnny Tran

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We have a new all time Champ racing brake fluid!!!! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Incorrect.

i am engineer at Brembo Racing North America, and im here to tell you there is more to determining the correct brake fluid for your application than a max wet/dry boiling point.

We run tests of all fluids on a quarterly basis on our brake dynos, and 'project mu' is and never has been in the top three of any of the performance tests run...and hell, sometimes the brembo stuff isnt either. I rarely reccomend it, even to professional teams. Castrol is also another 'iffy' proposition, as it does indeed have a high boiling point, but its recovery time is almost non existant (read: if you fry the brakes, your race is over) You would be surprised how little the fluid has to do with brake issues...and if you are boiling it in your honda on a lappingf day / sprint race you need to correct other issues.

Some fluids that are good all around and are consistently great performers include:

Ap racing
Ford heavy duty synth (the metal can version, also available at the dealer. ask for fluid for a ford focus)
Castrol, but not worth the cost if you have other issues 'see above'
ATE super blue/gold is ok as well....consistently a top ten performer all around

I hope that helps some people. Notice I didnt pimp any of our chit in this post

Nick

6spdKEG

I run AP racing DOT5.1 in my GSR brakes. Holds up real well.

I was impressed with the performance of it with a 2720lb car (EG Ex cpe with 2 people in it and full tank gas) I was running in a chase b/t myself and a 1992 911 turbo around a course for 10 laps/20minutes and I was braking hard and late into every turn. We were passing people as well.

I don't think the brake fluid had anything to do with this, but the only think I notice when I was braking REAL hard, I got some vibration but continued to brake straight. I'm talking going from 100mph to 45mph.

Johnny Tran

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't think the brake fluid had anything to do with this, but the only think I notice when I was braking REAL hard, I got some vibration but continued to brake straight. I'm talking going from 100mph to 45mph. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Several things could be attributed to this action ranging from pad transfer (whether on track, or caused by a 'hot spot' by not letting the brakes cool down before you park the vehicle), or we often see in professional series, that wheel bearing wear/preload can severely impact braking performance....especially in an ultra-stiff or coil bind type setup (bear with me, I work mainly with Nascar )

Check the condition of the usual suspects, the things listed above, and caliper piston/seal condition....and go from there.


hope that helps you.

Nick

6spdKEG

the fluid, pads and rotors were new. I always cool the brakes down and do not use the e brake after I park after an HPDE session. Rotors sill look good and do not have warpage.

by looking at the condition of the Calipers and pistons, I really don't have the knowledge/experience to tell what might be attributing to the shake.

I should probably order a rebuild kit anyways and do this over the winter.

I'm thinking maybe the hotspot in the rotors might be the thing, or some bushing or bearing deal.


Modified by 6spdKEG at 2:50 PM 10/26/2006

nsxtasy

The most likely cause of the vibration (by far) is uneven brake pad deposits on the surface of the rotors. This can often be avoided by proper bedding of the brake pads prior to track use. Once you have a vibration, you can sometimes fix it by re-bedding the pads or turning the rotors and re-bedding the pads; otherwise, replace the rotors and the vibration will probably be gone. (I've had lots of experience with this, and for me, the vibration has always come from the front brakes, never the rear.)

You can read more on Stoptech's website here and here.

6spdKEG

well, I bed the brakes like I was suppose to. I wouldn't think that would be the problem.

10 - 70 to 30mph braking events, drive around a lil bit, 10 more braking events drive around a bit and cool for 20 minutes. do 10 more braking events and call it good.

I don't have all the little screws holding the rotors to the hub. do you think that could be the problem?

I will have to read up more on this.

descartesfool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Tran &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We run tests of all fluids on a quarterly basis on our brake dynos, ...
Nick
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Very interesting. So how do you test fluid performance on your brake dynos? Can you see a drastic drop in braking force when a fluid reaches its limit, or is it gradual. Once a fluid boils, do the bubbles resorb and the fluid start working normally? Do you measure actual fluid temperature or caliper temperature? do you test only brand new fluid out of the bottle or "wet" fluid as well? Does caliper cooling (by itself or in addition to centre of rotor cooling) offer protection against fluid boiling, or is centre of rotor cooling the best way to keep fluid from boiling? I can think of a ton more questions, as it's not like many people do brake dyno testing.

And how does the Motul fluid test out?

Johnny Tran

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Very interesting. So how do you test fluid performance on your brake dynos? Can you see a drastic drop in braking force when a fluid reaches its limit, or is it gradual. Once a fluid boils, do the bubbles resorb and the fluid start working normally? Do you measure actual fluid temperature or caliper temperature? do you test only brand new fluid out of the bottle or "wet" fluid as well? Does caliper cooling (by itself or in addition to centre of rotor cooling) offer protection against fluid boiling, or is centre of rotor cooling the best way to keep fluid from boiling? I can think of a ton more questions, as it's not like many people do brake dyno testing.

And how does the Motul fluid test out?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Holy mouthfull !
Ill try to answer some of your questions:

So how do you test fluid performance on your brake dynos?

We start with fresh fluid, and basically (very for this discussion) run it in a controlled brake test untill failure. Sometimes this is a simulated race track scenario, sometimes a 140-70ish standard stopping test repeated. It depends on what we are trying to accomplish.

Can you see a drastic drop in braking force when a fluid reaches its limit, or is it gradual?

As I said above, it really depends on the fluid. Castrol, for instance, reaches its failure point and never 'recovers' after a couple of relaxed stops.....compare this scenario to a loss in brake pressure in your own car (long pedal) and you 'babying' it for a couple corners in hopes of the brakes coming back. With that fluid, it just doesnt happen....albeit, that point is very high.

Once a fluid boils, do the bubbles resorb and the fluid start working normally?
see above...a long winded answer to that can be arranged later.

Do you measure actual fluid temperature or caliper temperature?

we do both...using labview, and thermocoupling.

do you test only brand new fluid out of the bottle or "wet" fluid as well?

yes to both.

Does caliper cooling (by itself or in addition to centre of rotor cooling) offer protection against fluid boiling, or is centre of rotor cooling the best way to keep fluid from boiling?

very much so....although care must be taken not to over cool the brakes, as many of our pads dont even work until they see temperatures of over 1k degrees F. You want to, and need to find that 'sweet' spot. Although, you would probably never bother with something so drastic on a honda in a sprint/IT/HC race. a simple brake cooling duct with minimal bends would be sufficient for most cars out there.


And how does the Motul fluid test out

I can try to find the actual graphical data today, but it wasnt any more special than say a 'Ford heavy duty' fluid. In fact, the 'good' ford stuff is consistently in the top 4-5 of our tests...believe it or not. (and that is with constant 1200 degree F rotor temps, no cooling, on a simulated short track Nascar Cup car) read: 3500lbs, 12.2" rotors, and 6 piston (intermediate) calipers.

Hope that helps answer some questions.

Nick

6spdKEG

So what do you think of AP racing DOT 5.1 synthetic Nick??

Mr.OB*GYN_Rhett

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what do you think of AP racing DOT 5.1 synthetic Nick??</TD></TR></TABLE>
well he did mention it in the top 5 or so. It would seem to me he favors the Ford HD, which is what i will go with. Damn GM and Ford being better that "jdm" companies at making fluids haha. So Nick, go to ford and say I need some focus brake fluid?

6spdKEG

He mentioned AP racing and not a specific model number.. .

Mr. Amused

Johnny tran=FTW
^^^very knowledgable

NIKE SB'd

iTrader: (1)

wow how much is this ford fluid?

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, I bed the brakes like I was suppose to. I wouldn't think that would be the problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It still could be. And even if you bed them properly, they can still develop irregularities in the brake pad deposits.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">10 - 70 to 30mph braking events, drive around a lil bit, 10 more braking events drive around a bit and cool for 20 minutes. do 10 more braking events and call it good.</TD></TR></TABLE>

20 minutes isn't enough. For proper bedding, they should cool down at least overnight. (And you didn't mention one way or the other, but there should be NO braking done after all the hard braking stops.)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't have all the little screws holding the rotors to the hub. do you think that could be the problem?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No.

6spdKEG

I didn't get the brakes to fad during the 1st 2 braking events. So thats why I did it three times.

after the third time, I did drive the car for more like 15 minutes, made a couple stops getting back to the garage, parked it without using the e brake (1hr), loaded my tools up and drove another 15 minutes with a couple stops involved into town, then I let the car sit overnight (Ebrake applied errrr)

I guess I could have screwed them up. I'm racing tomorrow mourning again and don't have time to swap out my rotors for the set of new ones I have lying around. I will take the new ones with me and if the shaking gets worse, then I'll swap them out at the track.

I'll turn the rotors and sand blast the pads when I am done.

So do you think that using a slotted rotor helps these uneven deposits on the brake pads?

I have a set of slotted Italian Tire Rack Brembo rotors I could use. . .

descartesfool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Tran &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Holy mouthfull !
Ill try to answer some of your questions:

....
Hope that helps answer some questions.

Nick


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks a lot for the answers! I could think of a ton more questions Nick. Here is a nice pic of a brake dynamometer test using Labview software: http://sine.ni.com/csol/cds/it...24100


and an interesting look at what can be done here: http://www.roushind.com/news_d...q.pdf

I have seen NASCAR style brake ducting with 3 different ducts per wheel, and I can see that at their speeds and weight and race length, they are in a different league. But when you say that a simple brake duct with few bends should suffice for a typical Honda setup, where do you blow the air? To the center of the rotor, the back of the disk, the caliper area? I assume the hottest part of the entire system is the disk surface where it leaves the pad, but is it true that you shouldn't blow air just to one side of the disk? Is it required to force the air to the centre of the disk, or not really? I have been using Genesis brake temperature paint, and have found that each side of the disk on the outside reaches a different temperature. That was a surprise to me. Also where do you want to check temperatures using temp paint? (I can't see sticking thermocouples inside my calipers for now;-)

nsxtasy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdKEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So do you think that using a slotted rotor helps these uneven deposits on the brake pads?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, I don't think that makes any difference (based on experience with both types of rotors).