what is this process called?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Honda-Tech Member
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From: mother russia
let me help you out here. that kit car is **** on wheels. i first read about that about 2 years or more ago and guess what, it's still in the same stages of development and by development i mean welding **** together with little to no understanding of what it takes to build a car and then likening it to the 911gt1 and other prototype lemans cars. that car is such a joke.
the onlything beneficial about that car is that the site offers a ton of pics of the low budget build process which is helpful for novices who want to learn about mold making and whatnot.
i suspect that if you didnt look at that picture couldnt tell that they were using fiberglass and answer your won question that you probably are in no danger of being able to fiberglass anything. im just messing with you.
the onlything beneficial about that car is that the site offers a ton of pics of the low budget build process which is helpful for novices who want to learn about mold making and whatnot.
i suspect that if you didnt look at that picture couldnt tell that they were using fiberglass and answer your won question that you probably are in no danger of being able to fiberglass anything. im just messing with you.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 438
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From: Tampa, FL
Re: (Mr.E.G.)
thats how chip foose does it (except with more exotic materials). they are doing the process correctly, however that doesn't say much considering they only made the mold.
there really isn't that much to making a mold like that. the pictures explain pretty much everything.
they are using plain jane fiberglass mat with a polyester resin. this can all be had at your local homedepot, however you going to need a ton of it, so i would recomend going to a local paint supplyer.
there is also pre-mixed mold mat, which is basically kitty hair in a sheet form. its already thick and packs in nicely.
to fill in your gaps on the prototype, you would use expanding foam. you can use great stuff, however you'll be broke buying 10,000 cans to do a project like that. best thing to get is a two part high expansion foam that good for sanding. this stuff can also be ordered through a local paint supply. kinda pricy though.
there really isn't that much to making a mold like that. the pictures explain pretty much everything.
they are using plain jane fiberglass mat with a polyester resin. this can all be had at your local homedepot, however you going to need a ton of it, so i would recomend going to a local paint supplyer.
there is also pre-mixed mold mat, which is basically kitty hair in a sheet form. its already thick and packs in nicely.
to fill in your gaps on the prototype, you would use expanding foam. you can use great stuff, however you'll be broke buying 10,000 cans to do a project like that. best thing to get is a two part high expansion foam that good for sanding. this stuff can also be ordered through a local paint supply. kinda pricy though.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 119
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: (manifoldmiketyson)
i dont care about that kit, i was just wondering about the process. im sure you can use the same process and make cars that are 1/4 the size? like models.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: what is this process called? (comp)
ya so basically if i wanted to make say a 1/4 model right.
i would have to make a drawing for the size i want to make the model (cad drawing) side view, top, front/back.
cut out wood pieces. (why are their holes in the wooden pieces?)
put in the 2 part foam... shape it etc
so basically the whole process step by step i suppose or more theory. i was looking at schools and they have programs "tool and die/mould making" but i dont konw if they teach the same process.
any thoughts?
i would have to make a drawing for the size i want to make the model (cad drawing) side view, top, front/back.
cut out wood pieces. (why are their holes in the wooden pieces?)
put in the 2 part foam... shape it etc
so basically the whole process step by step i suppose or more theory. i was looking at schools and they have programs "tool and die/mould making" but i dont konw if they teach the same process.
any thoughts?
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,708
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From: Eagle Mountain, UT, USA
Re: what is this process called? (Top Ramen)
Well they might have been wanting to make sure the plug was more stable so the foam could connect with each station. This also makes the whole thing lighter so it can be moved without fear of something in the plug coming apart. If it's built really heavy I could see the risk if the whole thing isn't picked up evenly.
Here is the same process used by an FSAE member on my forum:
http://www.racingcomposites.net/unt?id=1146
He used metal stations but the principal is the same. A good book topick up to learn more about this is:
http://www.amazon.com/Fibergla...r=8-3
As far a going to school to learn how to do this type of thing there are several composites schools if you want to pay to learn. I suggest you just try it and from there it will be more about application, cost, and material choice. Don't be technically intimidated by what you see other than it is a lot of work. I was a bit surprised to see the damage on the plug from pulling molds. Here is a classic case of using the wrong materials for the job and that knowleadge comes from screwing up a few times. They clearly didn't use the right release chemical, it looks like they used paste wax or something and some of the plug came off when they released the molds. There are some high dollar semi perm release chemicals that will do the job every time and when you alreay have several thousand man hours into a project c'mon dig deep and buy a gallon of $150 release to make sure things go well.
Here is the same process used by an FSAE member on my forum:
http://www.racingcomposites.net/unt?id=1146
He used metal stations but the principal is the same. A good book topick up to learn more about this is:
http://www.amazon.com/Fibergla...r=8-3
As far a going to school to learn how to do this type of thing there are several composites schools if you want to pay to learn. I suggest you just try it and from there it will be more about application, cost, and material choice. Don't be technically intimidated by what you see other than it is a lot of work. I was a bit surprised to see the damage on the plug from pulling molds. Here is a classic case of using the wrong materials for the job and that knowleadge comes from screwing up a few times. They clearly didn't use the right release chemical, it looks like they used paste wax or something and some of the plug came off when they released the molds. There are some high dollar semi perm release chemicals that will do the job every time and when you alreay have several thousand man hours into a project c'mon dig deep and buy a gallon of $150 release to make sure things go well.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 119
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: what is this process called? (crx12)
thanks for all the input. some more questions...
you know how they make those "foam bucks" and then basically the body or partial body is made of carbon fiber. IE: http://cache.jalopnik.com/asse...2.jpg
the whole thing is made of carbon fiber, so how do they lay that or how do they make the mold? first the outside then the inside and somehow bolt them together or??
thanks
you know how they make those "foam bucks" and then basically the body or partial body is made of carbon fiber. IE: http://cache.jalopnik.com/asse...2.jpg
the whole thing is made of carbon fiber, so how do they lay that or how do they make the mold? first the outside then the inside and somehow bolt them together or??
thanks
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 119
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: what is this process called? (dopefeen)
ok if you youtube "birth of a bugatti veyron" you'll see that they make 2 different bodies - one is the front end and the other is the back which hold the engine. they mate the two and bolt them on (from what i can tell) is that enough to hold the car together =\
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,708
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From: Eagle Mountain, UT, USA
Re: what is this process called? (dopefeen)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dopefeen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for all the input. some more questions...
you know how they make those "foam bucks" and then basically the body or partial body is made of carbon fiber. IE: http://cache.jalopnik.com/asse...2.jpg
the whole thing is made of carbon fiber, so how do they lay that or how do they make the mold? first the outside then the inside and somehow bolt them together or??
thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well with the Hemisfear shown in the pic that has a steel frame I'm pretty sure and the body was molded in several pieces interior and exterior. The body may add to the rigidity of the car but I'm not sure since I haven't seen all the construction pics. THe Bugatti is quite different in it's construction but I'll get to that in the next post. As far as how they make the molds to make ther body and panels the first step is to create a pattern or plug. This is the positive shape as it is going to look when it's finished. You can see in the DDR link they build this out of the wood stations and urethane foam. The way the built their plug is a pretty low cost approach. You could have an entire plug machined from tooling board if you have the 3-D data to machine that. Once you have the plug built or machined you can think about parting lines and how many sections the mold will be broken into and where the breaks will occur. All of this depends on the shape of the part to be copied. From there you can coat the entire plug with a resin based primer and then wet sand and buff. Then you can seal it and release so no resin will stick to the surface. Once this is done you can spray or brush a surface or gel coat of resin on the part and then start laminating many layers of fiberglass or carbon. Or you can use a mixture of fabrics and tooling dough for a room temp cure. If you are going to cure at elevated temps you need more specialized resins. Once those layers of fabric and resin cures you can pull it off and use this as your mold(s). A multi part mold is much more complex because you have to make sure all of the mold parts can be bolted together so you can lay up the actual part.
Sometimes you can skip the plug step and just machine a female mold to begin with but you need the equipment of course. What you are looking at is several molded parts joined together by way of riveting or more likely bonding. If you broke it down into it's various pieces it would make more sense because it's hard to tell what parts were separate in the beginning. Since this is just the body and it might not have any load placed on it other than it's own weight so joining may not be that big of a deal. More on this in the next post.
you know how they make those "foam bucks" and then basically the body or partial body is made of carbon fiber. IE: http://cache.jalopnik.com/asse...2.jpg
the whole thing is made of carbon fiber, so how do they lay that or how do they make the mold? first the outside then the inside and somehow bolt them together or??
thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well with the Hemisfear shown in the pic that has a steel frame I'm pretty sure and the body was molded in several pieces interior and exterior. The body may add to the rigidity of the car but I'm not sure since I haven't seen all the construction pics. THe Bugatti is quite different in it's construction but I'll get to that in the next post. As far as how they make the molds to make ther body and panels the first step is to create a pattern or plug. This is the positive shape as it is going to look when it's finished. You can see in the DDR link they build this out of the wood stations and urethane foam. The way the built their plug is a pretty low cost approach. You could have an entire plug machined from tooling board if you have the 3-D data to machine that. Once you have the plug built or machined you can think about parting lines and how many sections the mold will be broken into and where the breaks will occur. All of this depends on the shape of the part to be copied. From there you can coat the entire plug with a resin based primer and then wet sand and buff. Then you can seal it and release so no resin will stick to the surface. Once this is done you can spray or brush a surface or gel coat of resin on the part and then start laminating many layers of fiberglass or carbon. Or you can use a mixture of fabrics and tooling dough for a room temp cure. If you are going to cure at elevated temps you need more specialized resins. Once those layers of fabric and resin cures you can pull it off and use this as your mold(s). A multi part mold is much more complex because you have to make sure all of the mold parts can be bolted together so you can lay up the actual part.
Sometimes you can skip the plug step and just machine a female mold to begin with but you need the equipment of course. What you are looking at is several molded parts joined together by way of riveting or more likely bonding. If you broke it down into it's various pieces it would make more sense because it's hard to tell what parts were separate in the beginning. Since this is just the body and it might not have any load placed on it other than it's own weight so joining may not be that big of a deal. More on this in the next post.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,708
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From: Eagle Mountain, UT, USA
Re: what is this process called? (dopefeen)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dopefeen »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok if you youtube "birth of a bugatti veyron" you'll see that they make 2 different bodies - one is the front end and the other is the back which hold the engine. they mate the two and bolt them on (from what i can tell) is that enough to hold the car together =\ </TD></TR></TABLE>
Just watched it. This car has a moncoque chassis unlike the Foose car. This is built very similar to high end formula cars where the monocoque is made by laying up carbon fiber and a core into two female molds and then joing them together at a seam. Usually the top half is cured separate from the bottom half and each half has an overlapping joint that is connected through bonding and mechanical means. When you saw them joining the two parts of the car the rear assembly was likely all metal and it was bolted into co-molded metal fittings in the monocoque. These specially designed captive molded metal pieces are designed to spread out the loads that attach to them or pass through them. Since you could not really bolt anything through the composite by itself without damaging the core with compressive forces these are required to attach suspension fittings and the rear motor/transaxle assembly. Usually the fittings extend pretty far around the load point and this allows the load to be spread more effectively. Sometimes these hard points are pre-cured solid carbon fiber or super tough resin. Seeing these cars in construction up close you would be able to see what I'm talking about. This is a huge subject but really quite interesting once you get into it, I feel like I only know a fraction of this technology even though I have been around a while, it's just so vast.
Just watched it. This car has a moncoque chassis unlike the Foose car. This is built very similar to high end formula cars where the monocoque is made by laying up carbon fiber and a core into two female molds and then joing them together at a seam. Usually the top half is cured separate from the bottom half and each half has an overlapping joint that is connected through bonding and mechanical means. When you saw them joining the two parts of the car the rear assembly was likely all metal and it was bolted into co-molded metal fittings in the monocoque. These specially designed captive molded metal pieces are designed to spread out the loads that attach to them or pass through them. Since you could not really bolt anything through the composite by itself without damaging the core with compressive forces these are required to attach suspension fittings and the rear motor/transaxle assembly. Usually the fittings extend pretty far around the load point and this allows the load to be spread more effectively. Sometimes these hard points are pre-cured solid carbon fiber or super tough resin. Seeing these cars in construction up close you would be able to see what I'm talking about. This is a huge subject but really quite interesting once you get into it, I feel like I only know a fraction of this technology even though I have been around a while, it's just so vast.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 119
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: what is this process called? (crx12)
hey crx12 i sent u pm dunno if you got it.
ok, how would someone go on about getting into this type of work:
http://www.kitcarmag.com/featu....html
making custom cars like this. you design the chassis, the body and build it. I know it would be expensive etc but what kind of training would you have to get. Go to school for autobody repair? or tool/die mould making? transportation design? automotive engineering?
ok, how would someone go on about getting into this type of work:
http://www.kitcarmag.com/featu....html
making custom cars like this. you design the chassis, the body and build it. I know it would be expensive etc but what kind of training would you have to get. Go to school for autobody repair? or tool/die mould making? transportation design? automotive engineering?
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Santo Domingo, DN, Dominican Republic
Re: what is this process called? (dopefeen)
Ok, I know that here at Dominican Republic we did not have the expertice or the tools or the institutes of automotive design and build.
But let me tell you that build something like this car was in my country a demostration of love for cars and a huge dedication, not only because the materials have to be bught in the US, choosing the correct person to do the body parts and making this project a reality without help is for me a giant inspiration. So before say something that did not cost you nothing think first in the hard work that this cost.
By the way .... this is the oficial site of the project...... and yes.... is finished and runing
http://www.ddrmotorsport.com/
But let me tell you that build something like this car was in my country a demostration of love for cars and a huge dedication, not only because the materials have to be bught in the US, choosing the correct person to do the body parts and making this project a reality without help is for me a giant inspiration. So before say something that did not cost you nothing think first in the hard work that this cost.
By the way .... this is the oficial site of the project...... and yes.... is finished and runing
http://www.ddrmotorsport.com/
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 1
From: mother russia
Re: what is this process called? (alex_sotam)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alex_sotam »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, I know that here at Dominican Republic we did not have the expertice or the tools or the institutes of automotive design and build.
But let me tell you that build something like this car was in my country a demostration of love for cars and a huge dedication, not only because the materials have to be bught in the US, choosing the correct person to do the body parts and making this project a reality without help is for me a giant inspiration. So before say something that did not cost you nothing think first in the hard work that this cost.
By the way .... this is the oficial site of the project...... and yes.... is finished and runing
http://www.ddrmotorsport.com/
</TD></TR></TABLE>
are you diego? if so, i have been waiting for a couple of years to tell you that i think you site, concept, etc. is the best example of low budget automotive swill that is trying to be passed off as some kind of awesome car.
dont get me wrong, i really think it's great that you did this, but drop the superlatives and accept the fact that this is a not so special kit car. you liken it to lemans cars for christ sake. get real.
it is really frustrating that your site talks about it like it is something awesome. it's a good example of handy craftsmanship but a far cry from automotive engineering. it really begs the question "why wouldnt i just buy an mr2"?
But let me tell you that build something like this car was in my country a demostration of love for cars and a huge dedication, not only because the materials have to be bught in the US, choosing the correct person to do the body parts and making this project a reality without help is for me a giant inspiration. So before say something that did not cost you nothing think first in the hard work that this cost.
By the way .... this is the oficial site of the project...... and yes.... is finished and runing
http://www.ddrmotorsport.com/
</TD></TR></TABLE>are you diego? if so, i have been waiting for a couple of years to tell you that i think you site, concept, etc. is the best example of low budget automotive swill that is trying to be passed off as some kind of awesome car.
dont get me wrong, i really think it's great that you did this, but drop the superlatives and accept the fact that this is a not so special kit car. you liken it to lemans cars for christ sake. get real.
it is really frustrating that your site talks about it like it is something awesome. it's a good example of handy craftsmanship but a far cry from automotive engineering. it really begs the question "why wouldnt i just buy an mr2"?
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Santo Domingo, DN, Dominican Republic
Re: what is this process called? (Mr.E.G.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
are you diego? if so, i have been waiting for a couple of years to tell you that i think you site, concept, etc. is the best example of low budget automotive swill that is trying to be passed off as some kind of awesome car.
dont get me wrong, i really think it's great that you did this, but drop the superlatives and accept the fact that this is a not so special kit car. you liken it to lemans cars for christ sake. get real.
it is really frustrating that your site talks about it like it is something awesome. it's a good example of handy craftsmanship but a far cry from automotive engineering. it really begs the question "why wouldnt i just buy an mr2"?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I'm not Diego, I m just a fan who live in DR, but have my projects too. I have to admit your point of view, but is still something that can get better with the year for a country where having a car is a luxury.
Honda Tech if one of the most impresive sites I ever seen, love the articles an the persons who say they oppinion becouse is for sure honest and in a way to help.
Sory if I sound uppset, it was not on the sence of insult, just a relieve.
are you diego? if so, i have been waiting for a couple of years to tell you that i think you site, concept, etc. is the best example of low budget automotive swill that is trying to be passed off as some kind of awesome car.
dont get me wrong, i really think it's great that you did this, but drop the superlatives and accept the fact that this is a not so special kit car. you liken it to lemans cars for christ sake. get real.
it is really frustrating that your site talks about it like it is something awesome. it's a good example of handy craftsmanship but a far cry from automotive engineering. it really begs the question "why wouldnt i just buy an mr2"?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, I'm not Diego, I m just a fan who live in DR, but have my projects too. I have to admit your point of view, but is still something that can get better with the year for a country where having a car is a luxury.
Honda Tech if one of the most impresive sites I ever seen, love the articles an the persons who say they oppinion becouse is for sure honest and in a way to help.
Sory if I sound uppset, it was not on the sence of insult, just a relieve.
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 67
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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Re: what is this process called? (alex_sotam)
I remember years ago when Kit cars were "cool", people were renting exotic cars for the weekend, covering them in wet newspaper and trying to make molds of the body with kitty hair and boat cloth fiberglass! Funny ****.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 1
From: mother russia
Re: what is this process called? (alex_sotam)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alex_sotam »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No, I'm not Diego, I m just a fan who live in DR, but have my projects too. I have to admit your point of view, but is still something that can get better with the year for a country where having a car is a luxury.
Honda Tech if one of the most impresive sites I ever seen, love the articles an the persons who say they oppinion becouse is for sure honest and in a way to help.
Sory if I sound uppset, it was not on the sence of insult, just a relieve.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well now i feel like an ******* american. lol. no offense man. it just aggravates me that they talk about that car like it's more awesome than it is.
No, I'm not Diego, I m just a fan who live in DR, but have my projects too. I have to admit your point of view, but is still something that can get better with the year for a country where having a car is a luxury.
Honda Tech if one of the most impresive sites I ever seen, love the articles an the persons who say they oppinion becouse is for sure honest and in a way to help.
Sory if I sound uppset, it was not on the sence of insult, just a relieve.</TD></TR></TABLE>
well now i feel like an ******* american. lol. no offense man. it just aggravates me that they talk about that car like it's more awesome than it is.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 1
From: mother russia
Re: what is this process called? (mcmotors)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mcmotors »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I remember years ago when Kit cars were "cool", people were renting exotic cars for the weekend, covering them in wet newspaper and trying to make molds of the body with kitty hair and boat cloth fiberglass! Funny ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hahahaha. that's a great idea.
hahahaha. that's a great idea.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Santo Domingo, DN, Dominican Republic
Re: what is this process called? (Mr.E.G.)
No prob... men...
BTW... this is a blog of my project.... soon I will create the forum here... news soon..
http://sotamprojectx.blogspot.com/
BTW... this is a blog of my project.... soon I will create the forum here... news soon..
http://sotamprojectx.blogspot.com/
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