ok, well i have been going over a few ideas on torque dampers recently. i started getting away from the damper idea then started going over solid ideas and was going to go with a bracket and bar that would utilize the factory torque mount bracket, but decided to scrap it all for a full custom piece.



so what do you think? my first impressions on the drive home from the shop, are that this is a very functional piece. i can feel a substantial increase in vibration at idle and a substantial decrease in engine movement on shifts. i was not even testing on full throttle runs or anything super hard. i was shifting fast and popping the clutch quite fast just to try and force some engine movement, and got nothing.

considering making up a jig and selling these on a 1 by 1 basis if there is enough interest. i think it could be a great mid point, for the drag racers and road racers alike, between poly inserted stock mounts and solid mounts. i went from the poly insert on the factory torque mount to this and it was a great difference, and this is only a 200whp NA car!!! i would like to see some input, and i will be coming back with more updates after i get a few more ponies, some more DD duty, and some time on the slicks.

 

It's definitely not bad for your application. It's at a pretty big disadvantage from a perspective of leverage, but it's beefy so I'm sure you'll be fine.

As far as selling them, I don't think that's gonna work for you. Torque dampners need some type of adjustability due to the variations in aftermarket mounts and where they locate motors. There are just too many variables to market a solid, non adjustable dampner.

 

i hadnt really thought of that. i kinda figured the majority of engine locations would be the same. maybe i will go with my other idea for the adjustability factor. i will have to fab up that one when i get a chance and see how that one might do. what do you mean "It's at a pretty big disadvantage from a perspective of leverage"?

 

I just mean that the axis in which the motor rotates under acceleration isn't exactly ideal in comparison to the design of the dampner. Like I said though, the construction is stout enough that's its not an issue.

 

looks good. maybe machined aluminum or a clean paint job and a cleaner mount kit, with some type of adustablit factor and you're set. either that or just fab each indivudl one .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It's at a pretty big disadvantage from a perspective of leverage</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2. it looks like it could use some triangulation.

EX : (dont mind the sick ms paint skill ! )

 

Triangulating it like that wouldn't do any good, it's not giving it any extra support on the plane it's going to bend on.

 

ms paint it up for us great one

 

i think i get what tony is suggesting... it needs to be triangulated in a vertical plane, not horizontal, so the triangle will be in line with the twisting motion of the engine.

 

personally I hate the idea of solid torque mounts, but to each its own...is it really necessary to have such a solid mount? with energy or prothane inserts the motor probably only rotates a few degrees when driving/shifting hard. If you wanted to sell them you would need to make them adjustable and much cleaner looking, you should integrate maybe some heim joints and tube ends and use lh and rh threaded heim joints so it would be adjustable and you could preload it. and maybe work it into the core support somehow, that way it would be a straight shot and not angled off to the side.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by weiRtech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think i get what tony is suggesting... it needs to be triangulated in a vertical plane, not horizontal, so the triangle will be in line with the twisting motion of the engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>


kinda hard to interprat an idea through ms paint. my ms paint drawing was not suppsosed to look " horzontal" but take it for what its worth / use your imagination.

say the op's mount has the bar connecting the ac mount to the tow hook, that bar would be located toward the bottom of the ac mount. theni would add another tube to the top of the ac mount, going down to the tow hook. and still have the tube running across from the ac mount to the oem torque mount location, with the tube connecting the oem torque mount bar to the tow hook bar. got beef !

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just mean that the axis in which the motor rotates under acceleration isn't exactly ideal in comparison to the design of the dampner. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wonder if the bar would be almost as effective with rod ends. The motor doesn't rotate on the axis of the bar, it rotates on the axis of a line drawn through your timing belt side and tranny side mounts. Although the non swiveling bar would further resist that motion.

I thinks it's cool that you're experimenting with this design, but I believe that with the right bushings and mount design/locations, there is no need for a solid component anywhere. I also wonder if that design could result in your driver's side mount becoming torn, if it's factory.

 

yeah that was my other idea but the only heims that i had were a little too big for the application. i will be making one up soon to show off! RC000e was saying that it needs to be more of a straight line to stiffen it up in a straight line. he is correct and it is strong enough that i will never have to worry about it. 1/4" plate and 1/8" wall 1" tube shouldnt bend, oh and i am a certified structural welder so i think itll do i would have liked a straighter shot but i feel a little better using my framerail for support rather than the flimsy sheetmetal core support. As far as the poly inserts go, i went with this over them for a reason, go watch a car with anything over 200whp on the dyno and tell me how much they "dont" move.

oh yeah and i will be painting it but i figured just leaving it in primer would help with being able to see it in the photo. oh and the bolts are getting replaced with shorter stainless bits tomorrow. my local bolt store was not open on sat.

 

and there are tons of people having issues with shifting and axles breaking and other various bad things due to the engine rotating on its factory mounts. there are solid engine mounts out now/soon and alot of companies making torque dampers. i will be switching to solid mounts at some point and like the idea of that, but then again i started my car life as a v8 guy and picked it up there. the torque dampers on the market are pretty much just for the bling factor if you ask me. they dont seem to have an optimal placement and it being a hydraulic cyl. just kind of negates the purpose. i would def. go with poly inserts over those, then buy one of my two ideas then go with solid mounts and one of my pieces i gotta get the adjustable unit put together ASAP!!!!

thanks for the input and i will keep you guys informed on what happens to my factory upper mounts (poly insert on rear mount), and anything else i find in my trials.

 

a good idea i guess for your application but bad for some others. some people run intercooler piping right there. and i dont think with that dezign you would be able to make them fit with traction bars. hard to tell from the pictures though.

 

For whats it worth I think it's gonna break. I'v tried something similar to this, not putting much thought behind the mount years ago and found out the hard way it doesn't work. It will eventually crack due to the vibrations and stress from it bending. You are trying to solidify the motor at the incorrect location. If anything; possibly consider that an additional mounting location in addition to the motor already being solid. If you run a solid back mount and make another mount like this off the tranny side then (depending on your craftmanship) it should work. You can at that point leave the upper 2 mounts stock; it makes putting the solid mounts on a hell of a lot easier as well as it allows you to rock the motor accordingly. Use a hole saw to cut out a 1/16 - 1/8" plate; 3" if I remember correctly, cut out 2 of them. drill the center holes out to 3/4" and weld them to the stock mount on either side! have fun with e rubber burning...

 

Guess time will tell....I find it hard to believe vibration will make his welds fail. If he were a noob welder I could see it, but his fab looks stout.

I know ol' Big Tom got some weld skills of his own though, and if his failed...makes you wonder.

Just run it and see what happens I suppose.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Guess time will tell....I find it hard to believe vibration will make his welds fail. If he were a noob welder I could see it, but his fab looks stout.

I know ol' Big Tom got some weld skills of his own though, and if his failed...makes you wonder.

Just run it and see what happens I suppose.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol like me, if i made something like that itd snap before i bolted it on completly LOL

i can make a fine bead with JB weld tho LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jeffy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and there are tons of people having issues with shifting and axles breaking and other various bad things due to the engine rotating on its factory mounts. there are solid engine mounts out now/soon and alot of companies making torque dampers. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What do you think about how I wrote that your bar would put more stress into the driver's side mount? I see it exerting force on it a certain way, do you see that too?
I'm curious what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Why not just use the right poly bushings? I've been through 3 different mount setups on my car. I ended up with 60a poly bushings all around with my 4 fabbed mounts, and all of the brackets/mounting points on the chassis were done by me, except for the factory driver's side chassis mounting point. I had to do this because of my car, no aftermarket support. Whith my first setup, I could not launch at all. The car would wheelhop so and throw the cd player out of the dash. I didn't understand why, I had stiff bushings and solid weldding..(and incredibly annoying vibration at anything under 4k rpm) but the stiff rear bushings and lack of a front mount were making the enire rear crossmember flex horribly, (!) the passenger side mount was too high, off the driveline's axis of rotation, putting a very weird leverage on itself and the back mount and more vibration into the chassis, and all of the bushings were too stiff. (excessive chassis vibration) So I thought and studied, and once I understood things like why the motor does not vibrate along the torsional axis of the crankshaft, why the tranny mount is lower than the driver's mount, etc, I saw why the factory built it the way they did, and then I changed everything up. Standing in a foot of snow welding outside sucked, but when I was done, I had a huge smile on my face, it was like driving a different car. Everything now feels just like a very firm factory setup.

But I know it could still be better. I really like the idea of a torque damper that uses a hydraulic shock type of setup. You could either use the mount bushings as the spring against the shock, or use a spring on the damper itself, just like your suspension. I would prefer to use a spring on the damper. If you had the right spring stiffness and damper valving, with a good mounting location, (and the mounts along the driveline's axis of rotation were up to the task) the motor would be able to rotate forward and back in a highly controlled way during the shift, taking a little stress off the axles and strongly resisting wheelhop. You could also have a little space in the bushing on the motor side of the torque damper's connecting point, like a factory torque mount, so vibration would not be conducted into the chassis when cruising/easy driving/idling. I believe that setup would beat anything else in just about every way, daily driving to drag racing.

 

Here is a pic of what I ended up Fabbing together to eliminate engine movement. I had an advantage of the front engine mount/crossmember to aid mounting. Before it was installed, the engine would torque back on the dyno almost far enough to kiss the intake against the firewall. Now with solid mounts and the solid support, there is virtually no movement under load.

 

why not revalve a cbr600 rear shock? and maybe run a stiff spring rate, the crx/da would be much easier due to the fact it has a crossmember in the front us eg/dc guys dont have that luxury, or should I say headache...haha

 

exactly! the front crossmember makes this a brainless idea. my design is def. not aimed towards FI guys and their associated plumbing but who want all that mess anyways im not really concerned about DD comforts at all, i rather like the feeling of an engines vibration, it makes me feel like part of the car. my piece will def. not work with traction bars, as a matter of fact i used the one that i fabbed up for the mount on the framerail . i didnt like traction bars for their limited usefulness. they are not very helpful in RR/AX, actually kind of hurtful, and mine was not designed for street duty as it had built in tow hooks out the bottom and they caught a hell of beating on a stoopid effing b-more manhole cover!!!! ripped the lower gusset portion of my frame rail off of the core support, dented the bottom of my frame in and twisted the 1/4" plate that was the mount on the pass side!!!! oh and none of my welds failed in all of this so thats why i dont already have a matching unit for the trans. side of this, or any concerns of my welds giving up

big tom i want some more info on this custom solid mount, are you speaking of the rear mount? just plating off the sides of the factory unit? of course with the rubber out.

 

oh and im not fond of the shock idea just because its too bulky.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solbrothers &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

maybe something like this, but then idk about the strength in that</TD></TR></TABLE>


That's basicaly what I used on my V8 back in the mid 70's. Sorry guys but I don't understand all the debate. The idea is to keep the engine and tranny from moving. Solid is better. If you don't like the vibration, then live with sloppy shifts.

Yes some of the poly mounts are nice but they will soften over time. It's all about what your willing to compromise on.

 

Dosn't Avid make solid billet torque mounts that mount in the stock location?What would be the anvantage of using the one you made over the ones available from Avid?Just curious.

Like these with out the urethane bushings
[IMG][/IMG]