Tad

OK heres the deal,
i have a really bizzarre problem with my car starting,
sometimes it just wont crank for some reason.

This happens really very randomly, temperature doesnt seem to affect it..
i'll just go to start it, fuel pump will prime, cel comes on then goes off,
then when u turn the key it'll click but nothing happens.
you can kinda hear a "whirring" sound(maybe the injectors spraying??) if you hold the key down ,but the starter doesnt do squat.

I haven't been able to try jumping the starter cuz I had no wire when it happened,
but now I've got a piece of wire in my car and it's ready for next time(though so far it's starting just fine).

very odd, cuz today it happened 3 times, each time I had to give it at least 10-20 tries before the car finally started, I just kept playing with the clutch pedal, ignition, letting it sit, blah blah, until it just ended up going.

And once the starter does go, the engine cranks over immediately..

sik96teg

wow that sucks maybe a loose ground or your starter might be on its way out the door. My buddies civic was doin the same thing til his just wouldnt start at all and i ended up replacing the starter for him. Never had another prob wit it since

Tad

yeah i hope its just the starter..
thats an ez fix..

EE_Chris

Ignition switches do go bad. They generally will allow the car to start up but once you let off the key, the engine will die. Not that that applies to your situation - just figured to throw out it there though.

Have you done the obvious stuff like disconnecting the wires to the starter and cleaning them? Cleaned all grounds? Make sure battery connections are clean and tight?

Tad

well I havent taken them off and cleand them
but i've had other issues in the past where I did that, so i'm sure they're making good contact,
and I did check that everythings tight and no corrosion or anything.

heh, if it were the ignition switch, at least i'd be able to get an adjustable steering column..

oh btw, I drove around all day today and it didnt do it once..
but it did it like crazy yesterday.. go fig ..

Tad

well this is freakin wierd..

problem just up and dissapeared...

freakin wierd man..

Scott_Tucker

You may have a bad starter or more specifically the starter solenoid that is part of the starter. The solenoid consists of a disc which completes the high amperage circuit that cranks over the engine. The disk spins spins so that each time you start it you are using a different part of the disk to complete the cicuit. This way it won't wear out as fast. If there is one or more particular spots on the disk that are too oxidized and will not conduct electricity, all you will get is the 'click' when you turn the key to the crank position. When the disk spins enough to get to a 'clean' spot, it will start normally. I have seen this hundreds of times. Next time it happens keep turning it to the crank position and you may eventually get it to a good spot where it will start. If it does, it's a pretty good indication that the starter is bad. This is assuming you have checked the battery cable connections, etc. for corrosion. Don't buy a cheap starter because I have seen them do it out of the box.

Tad

thanks, that really sounds like that might be it..
(could I just go into the solenoid and clean it??)

so do you mean to keep turning it to the crank position over and over
or hold it there?

Also i'm wondering if it could be running multiple compression tests that caused it?

Scott_Tucker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks, that really sounds like that might be it..
(could I just go into the solenoid and clean it??)?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, you can if you have the mechanical aptitude to do it. No guarantees if it will work though.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so do you mean to keep turning it to the crank position over and over
or hold it there?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, keep turning it to the crank position over and over until you hear it turn over.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also i'm wondering if it could be running multiple compression tests that caused it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No.

Tad

cool,
thanks for the info man.

if it happens again i'll probly just pull it and try cleaning it..

ppfalcon

Check your main relay, I had same problem. If you pull your pgmfi main relay the one that control fuel and take off the cover and look very close at the soldering make sure none of them are cracked, and you have to look very very close little hairline fractures will prevent good contact and prevent your car from starting, this is why many people pull there main relay!

Tad

ok I'm not very convinced that the problem is what AutoEng said it was, the solenoid in the starter..

it did it again today, and I did nothing but try the ignition over and over agian, after about 7 tries it just went nice and easy.

I thought it might have been the clutch start relay.. but I didn't mess with the clutch at all this time.. starters most likely the culprit..
I think i'll just take it off and try to clean it

Scott_Tucker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok I'm not very convinced that the problem is what AutoEng said it was, the solenoid in the starter..

it did it again today, and I did nothing but try the ignition over and over agian, after about 7 tries it just went nice and easy.

I thought it might have been the clutch start relay.. but I didn't mess with the clutch at all this time.. starters most likely the culprit..
I think i'll just take it off and try to clean it</TD></TR></TABLE>

So did you hear a 'click' sound from under the hood each of those 7 times or no sound at all? Or was there too much other noise to be able to hear? That sounds like what I was describing though, you try it a few times and it finally cranks.

Tad

Hmm, I BELIEVE there was a slight click,
but that could be just a normal click thats there even during normal starts(just u usually dont hear it.. cuz the car starts..)..

btw if I take it apart to clean it, i'll take pics

Scott_Tucker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm, I BELIEVE there was a slight click,
but that could be just a normal click thats there even during normal starts(just u usually dont hear it.. cuz the car starts..)..

btw if I take it apart to clean it, i'll take pics </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, if you hear a click from under the hood (you might want to pop the hood and have someone else try starting it so you can see if it sounds like it is coming from the starter area) it could be the solenoid switching but the round contact disk is not making a good connection therefore the motor does not spin. The solenoid is part of the starter motor, it is the smaller round cylinder on the starter assembly. The disk inside is made of copper. If you are able to get the disk out you can lay some 100 grit sandpaper on a flat surface and rub the disk until it is shiny all around it again. Of course there is no guarantee that the repair is going to last very long, it depends on how bad it is to begin with I guess. The solenoid is basically a big relay that switches high current. It also pushes the starter gear out and engages it with the flywheel.

amckee

Why not just jump 12 volts straight to the starter when it's not starting to rule out everything in between?

Tad

every time it's happened i havent had anything to jump it with,
except this one last time, I had a wire handy,
but I wanted test autoengs method first off

Scott_Tucker

Do you mean like taking jumper cables and running B+ straight to the starter motor?

Tad

well any wire from the power wire to the solenoid on the starter will bypass the whole ignition scheme

amckee

I'm saying use cables to bypass the solinoid go straight to the starter post. Before you do that, check for voltage going to the solinoid with a meter while someone is trying to crank it. If you get voltage to the solinoid, jump 12 volts to the starter post. If it spins, you got a bad solinoid, if not, bad starter.

Scott_Tucker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by amckee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm saying use cables to bypass the solinoid go straight to the starter post. Before you do that, check for voltage going to the solinoid with a meter while someone is trying to crank it. If you get voltage to the solinoid, jump 12 volts to the starter post. If it spins, you got a bad solinoid, if not, bad starter. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah but the post on the start already has 12V going to it all the time. The switching is handled internally by the solenoid.

amckee

My starter has 2 posts. Are you saying yours has one?

Scott_Tucker

I apologize, you are right. There are two posts. One on either side of the solenoid contacts. How do you propose hooking a jumper cable up to it though, isn't the one that goes straight to the motor right next to the case? Wouldn't it short against the case?

Tad

basically u just take the black wire/connector off the solenoid..
then touch a wire from the battery positive to where the black solenoid wire would connect..
and the starter goes off.

This technique is actually in the helms manual, they recommend it to rule out the starter as the culprit

Scott_Tucker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">basically u just take the black wire/connector off the solenoid..
then touch a wire from the battery positive to where the black solenoid wire would connect..
and the starter goes off.

This technique is actually in the helms manual, they recommend it to rule out the starter as the culprit</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK, I see what you are saying, but if the solenoid 'clicks' then it (the solenoid) is obviously moving. That would rule out the ignition switch or any wiring in between there and the starter solenoid. The starter is not necessarily going to spin using the method you described above if the solenoid contacts are bad, that's why I was saying if you hear a 'click' sound from the starter (and it should be a pretty obvious click with the hood up and your head near the starter area) but the starter doesn't spin the problem may lie internally with the starter, specifically the solenoid.

By the way, if you pull the starter and you have it tested at an auto parts store it will test fine because the testing fixture they put it on does not put it under any load and therefore not much current needs to pass through those solenoid contacts.

I have seen this problem literally hundreds of times and it is the most common way for a starter motor to fail. Another thing you can do if you want if you really want to be certain that the solenoid is getting power when you turn it to the crank position is to hook a 12V light bulb in series with the solenoid wire and then rig it so it sticks up out of the cowl area. Then, when the car won't start, if the light shines, you know you have a signal to the starter, if it does not shine, then you don't.

Let me know if you need any clarification. Helping someone troubleshoot a car over the internet is not very easy since I am not there. I'd hate to see you buy a starter or other part without being certain that it was faulty first. I can go into more detail but I am late for a doctors appt. right now so let me know if you need more help.