ok so i recently got a 94 GSR with 200k mi... and it failed smog miserably. the car has carb legal dc header and aem intake. previous owner guaranteed that it would pass smog -_-; well anyways, took it into the smog station and here are the results...

CO2 O2 HC(PPM) CO% NO
15MPH 13.9 | 0.7 | MAX-90 MEAS-242 | MAX-0.54 MEAS-0.90 | MAX-711 MEAS-3349

25MPH 14.0 | 0.6 | MAX-56 MEAS-200 | MAX-0.53 MEAS-0.80 | MAX-754 MEAS-2652

the tech had a hard time getting the cat up to temp... and also my car started overheating =| filled it up a with coolant the day before because of a burst coolant line... but apparently there wasn't enough =T anyways,they topped it off with water, and it ran fine again.

basically.. i'm a gross polluter -_-; the tech thinks that i definitely need a new cat, and possibly fix something with my fuel mixture? anyways, the guy i got it from agreed to help me address this issue.

CLIFFS
failed HC/NO miserably
labled GROSS POLLUTER

any help is greatly appreciated =]

 

Going by your O2 reading the cat is gone. Another thing pointing to this is all of the numbers are up.

I recommend changing out the O2 sensor too when you do the cat. A bad O2 Sensor will destroy the new cat within a few months

Your tech should be using a fan infront of the car when testing. It is required when temps are above 72 degrees.

 

It should also be noted that the seller is responsible for the car passing smog so if you feel it will cost too much to repair it, he needs to give you a refund.

 

The NOx is really high and since you dont have an EGR im gonna guess you have a more serious issue than the cat. A new cat is not gonna fix your problems. I suggest finding a Gold Shield station.

 

Yeah, those NOx numbers do look really high. Are you sure the only things that have been done are a header and intake? I agree with DCFIVER that a new cat likely won't clean up the NOx all the way, but it should help bring down the CO and HC. Just make sure it is not too big. Is the timing set to stock spec?

 

Those numbers are really close to my first smog check when I got my 88 crx si.

My cat was empty, nothing left. I replaced it and passed the test easy. However my rotor was wiggling aroung in the dizzy too.

 

Yea,but the cut point for an 88 crx with limited fuel control is much higher than a 94 geezer

 

thanks for the info. i plan on going back to the guys place this weekend to try and get everything sorted out.

 

ok so i talked to the shop.. and they said it would cost me 300 to fix everything w/ smog included.. am i better off trying paying this or should i try to source parts and do it myself? i still have a month left from the last smog check for free retest until pass...

 

Is this a Gold Shield station?? If so I would have them do the work. Repair facilities with Gold Shield status are required by the state to guarantee any smog repairs %100. If they dont fix it right the first time they must repair the vehicle until it passes smog, with no additional charge.

 

You sure about that? I know they must guarantee their work but I don't think they force them to guarantee that it will be diagnosed completely the first time, that's a bit unreasonable.

 

Not unreasonable with quality technicians. If a repair facility wishes to maintain their Gold Shield status , then accurate diagnosis of smog failure is a requirement that must be met.

 

A tech should definitely strive to make an accurate diagnosis the first time and a good tech should not have a problem doing that.

However, the type of scenario I was thinking of was more along the lines of (and I'm just using this as an example) a situation where, say, an engine has an open spark plug wire. The engine is basically running on three cylinders so HC are going to be sky high. After replacing the wire set the HC's are still high because the cat was damaged by the open wire (or maybe is just old). It wouldn't be reasonable for the shop to tell you you need a wire set and a cat because under most circumstances it probably would not need a cat. It would be more reasonable for them to say, you need to replace the wire set and recheck it, you may need more work. Should the shop be liable for a cat if they didn't warn that there could be something else wrong?

What a shop should be liable for fixing is a case where, say, a car has high CO and they replace the cat only to find out after replacement that the fuel pressure regulator is broken causing high fuel pressure and a rich mixture and therefore high CO. That's just a sloppy, unscientific diagnosis.

 

An EGA should always be perfomed first.When doing smog repairs all scenarios must be accounted for prior to begining repairs. And an EGA will pretty much point you in the right direction. There is no excuse for not accurately diagnosing a car for smog issues. There is no reason that the shop should not have checked the cat prior to replacing the wire set. If the cat was damaged due to faulty wires then the EGA would have alerted the technician to this. A ruptured FPR will not only cause high CO's but also very high HC's. This will be evident in both the long term fuel trim and the EGA. Only a half assed tech would assume the problem was just the cat.

 

By EGA do you mean Exhaust Gas Analysis?

 

Yes he does and hes correct. Any good tech with a properly working 5 gas analyzer and some basic testing equippment( scan tool) should be able to diagnose 99% of smog problems accurately and not just throw cats and tune ups at people.

 

^^^Exactly.

 

My original point had to do with what DCFIVER said: "Is this a Gold Shield station?? If so I would have them do the work. Repair facilities with Gold Shield status are required by the state to guarantee any smog repairs %100. If they dont fix it right the first time they must repair the vehicle until it passes smog, with no additional charge."

My problem is with 'If they dont fix it right the first time they must repair the vehicle until it passes smog, with no additional charge.'

I looked in the Laws and Regulation Relating to Automotive Repair Dealers, Licensed Official Stations, and Licensed Smog Check Stations manual, issued by the BAR for any verbiage relating to 'if a Gold Shield station misdiagnosis your car, they have to fix it for free no matter what the cost' and there is none.

I am not doubting his ability to diagnose emissions problems. It is true that any qualified tech should be able to diagnose the problem correctly the first time with no additional repairs needed. However, there are always those times when you know something is bad but you can not guarantee that it is going to allow it to pass emissions. The spark plug wire was supposed to be an obvious example of that.

If a car comes in running on 3 cylinders you know the emissions are going to be high. Are you going to sell the customer diagnostic time to check the cat, do a compression test to make sure the engine is sound, replace the cat, adjust the valves, or who knows what else in addition to the wires 'just in case'? No, your likely going to say, "Hey dude, your #2 cylinder spark plug wire is arcing to ground and causing the engine to misfire. We need to replace the wires and recheck emissions to see if it will pass now. If it needs any other work we'll call you and let you know what it needs." There is nothing wrong with selling it like that. It would only be wrong if you neglected to tell the customer there is the possibility that something else may need to be replaced or you flat out told him, 'I guarantee it will fix it'.

 

Agree. This is said with 25+ plus years in auto business. ANyone can write shotgun estimates, but everyone appreciates upfront honesty more than anything. A shotgun estimate is exactly as it sounds may not be the most precise estimate, but in close range,i.e. engine bay, it is a sure thing. Usually looks more like a grocery list than a repair estimate.

 

Unfortunately I could not find written statements to back up my claim either. My information comes via a State Ref who also happens to be a smog instructor. Also what i said about an EGA will preclude the need to sell unnecessary diag time. With all due respect Scott you sound inexperienced in diagnosing smog problems. You make them sound more complex than they are. You keep pushing the "what if" scenario. I already told you what I would do if a car came in with arcing wires. Exhaust gasses go hand in hand and any tech with fundamental diagnostic skills as well as experience and knowledge of exhaust analysis will be able to pinpoint a smog issue. I know, I do it all the time and I am by no means an infallible tech.

 

The reason I chose that example was simply to describe a scenario where it would be unreasonable for the shop to be liable for further repairs just because the initial repair did not fix it. I do not believe the BAR has a 'diagnose it right the first time' law of any kind even for Gold Shield stations. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a law that states this, I was just saying as far as I know it does not exist so it wouldn't be helpful to tell the original poster if they don't fix it after he pays the $300 he should demand that they fix it at their cost because that's going to cause some serious friction between him and the shop.

I am not inexperienced in diagnosing emissions failures. I do not currently hold a smog license, although I did take the 12 week smog course in 2007 so I am familiar with the laws. The class was paid for in advance by a former employer. Getting the license at the time really had no benefit for me because I would receive no raise in pay so I did not take the test. I currently work for a business that primarily deals with older, carbureted vehicles. We no longer perform smog checks but I deal with emissions failures on a daily basis and have been dealing with them for over 20 years. Other shops that do perform smogs but can not diagnose them correctly send their vehicles to us for diagnosis. I know that subletting emission diagnosis is supposed to be illegal but it happens and honestly the environment is probably better off because of it in our case. Many of the cars we see are the 80's vacuum line nightmares that really are complicated to diagnose and the vehicles have very little documentation available. OBDII cars are an absolute piece of cake compared to most of these cars. I have also been responsible for recalibrating (tuning) highly modified vehicles which were being tested at EPA labratories for CARB certification which is a lot more complicated that diagnosing any standard emissions failure.

Again, I am not trying to say that you are not good at diagnosing emissions failures, I was just trying to make the point that I think the guy that told you a Gold Shield station is responsible for fixing anything they did not catch on the first diagnosis for free is incorrect.

 

updates..
found oil in the coolant overfloww... which probably means blown headgasket. decided to **** it with this motor since it had 200K+ mi, and swap in a rebuilt b18c1

thanks for the info guys, it was very helpful =]

 

That sucks, sorry to hear that. Just remember if your cat is bad it will still probably need to be replaced.

 

yeah i plan on getting a new cat welded on w/ a new o2 sensor

 

I'm going with Scott on this one. Gold shield stations aren't going to guarantee everything on the first diagnosis. That's the reason why there is a section on the invoice for REVISED ESTIMATES. I agree that it's their job to figure out and diagnose the root problem. After that is done, you have to check and see what other systems were affected by the initial problem.