Is it possible to use the Moroso dry sump 4 stage pump on a B-Series engine?

Is a drive for Hondas available? Moroso only offers the 3 stage pump reverse rotating.

 

I cant answer that myself but U might wanna speak to Kurt ( KB58 ) he has a drysump syste on a H22a in a custom tubular mini frame, Its a project he working on; He should be able totell you more about what he is using, might be of some help

What the difference between the 3 and 4 stage pumps though?

 

3 stage: One pressure section and two scavenge sections
4 stage: One pressure section and three scavenge sections

 

I *wish* I had a dry-sump system but I can't justify the expense. Peterson was developing an H22 setup but by the time you get it all together, it was around $3500, more then the cost of the typical engine.

Moroso about a year ago was thinking of making one too, but at least at that time had not.

As far as rotation direction, Hondas are an odd-ball, opposite from virtually everything else out there which doesn't help the cost issue.

About the -3 and -4 stage, it refers to the number of scavage sections that feed the tank. Typically you need at least two for the pan. One for the valve cover is nice, two even better, and there you see the need for all the sections. The single pressure pump is always for pumping the scavaged oil from the tank into the engine.

Why would you want one? Here:

- You gain horsepower (like 5%!) because it sucks the air and oil mist out of the crankcase so the crank doesn't hit it.

- You can lower the engine since the pan no longer has a deep sump.

- You don't run out of oil in hard turns.

- If you get a slight leak, the large reserve tank will cover you until the end of the race.

- It de-airates the oil, greatly insuring you won't have oiling problems and lengthens the life of the engine.

In my case I decided to go with a well baffled pan and use an Accusump oil reservoir. Far from perfect but literally 1/10 as expensive. I will though be watching the oil pressure during my roadracing... With the little Mini expecting to pull over 1G I suspect I'll need something.

 

Moroso as well as Z10 and Peterson make dry sump kits for hondas..

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/honda2.html

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/...13939

 

You can't use that 4 stage Dry sump, because of the reverse rotation of the Honda 4 Cylinder engines. Plus the 3 stage Dry sump pump that Moroso offer for the Honda is more than enough for a small displacement 4 cyl honda engines. If you figure base on a turbocharge engine, the pressure side of the pump goes to lubricate the motor via the help of the remote oil filter mount, and the two scavenge port pulls the oil out from the custom Moroso dry sump oil pan and dump it back into the dry sump tank, and also there is a port on the well design dry sump oil pan for the oil return out the turbocharger. I don't see the need for that 4 stage dry sump pump at all just because of the fact that there is probably going to be no room to mount the pump, which a 4 stage would be kind of nice because that gave you another scavenge port and that can be hook up to the valve cover. But if the 4 stage is what you want, I think Barnes offers a reverse rotation 4 stage dry sump pump.

 

Wow, thats pretty impressive, I didnt realise they gave you such a gain!

Kurt, You might want to look into http://www.silkolene.com
They have a a special RACE only oil for use on the track.I think that would be ideal for your setup and also they engineer the oil to let the engine turn freely giving most power and protection! I'm going to buy a tub if the oil pump in a JDM with 30k on the clock iss powerful enough, what do you think?

Also buying a tub of Silktran 5 transmission fluid, the best!

 

it also lets you run very low tension rings to reduce fricton .

 

It looks like the 4 stage can be used on a Honda with some custom brackets?

Clockwise 4 stage pump:



Reverse 3 stage pump:



Mounted on an engine:





Am i right or wrong?

I looks like if i use the 4 stage pump on the right side only the brackets are on the front and not on the back. But that shouldn't be a serious problem.

 

Does anyone have a picture of a 4 stage pump mounted on an engine?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andre &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It looks like the 4 stage can be used on a Honda with some custom brackets?


Am i right or wrong?

I looks like if i use the 4 stage pump on the right side only the brackets are on the front and not on the back. But that shouldn't be a serious problem.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It will still turn the same way if you just mount it on the other side, and if you go into adding cogs to reverse te motion it most likely will defeat the point and sap power to drive it.

Damn you Moroso for not making 4 stage honda pumps!
...or offering small loans to buy the systems! j/k

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by OTT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It will still turn the same way if you just mount it on the other side, and if you go into adding cogs to reverse te motion it most likely will defeat the point and sap power to drive it.

Damn you Moroso for not making 4 stage honda pumps!
...or offering small loans to buy the systems! j/k </TD></TR></TABLE>


You're right, i made a mistake in my mind.

But what do you think about this solution:



There would be enough room on the side.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by "techhelp@moroso.com" &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Dear Sir or Madam,

i have bought a dry sump 4 stage pump, but now i noticed that i need the reverse rotation pump for my Honda. Is it possible to convert the clockwise rotation pump into a reserve rotation pump?

Or would it be possible to mount the pump with custom made brackets like shown in the attached picture? Would there be any issue?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hope they'll reply



Modified by Andre at 1:04 AM 2/14/2004

 

Mechanically, yes that will work, but I don't thing it would be structurally sound. It would need an enormous bracket if mounted that far away, and I suspect vibration would be a big issue. Also it's sure to hit other things...

 

Answer from Moroso: You can mount it like that. It will work but the vibration might be to much for the bracket.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andre &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Answer from Moroso: You can mount it like that. It will work but the vibration might be to much for the bracket.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Interpretation = We will sell it you; you can give it a go but it might shake to bits

lol I would either stick to the 3stage or wait for a 4stage to be released (very unlikely!)

 

------------------

Hello,

thank you for your quick reply.

It seems that the scavenge stages are the same for the clockwise and
reverse rotating pumps.

Is it possible to use the scavenge stages from the 4 stage pump (No.
22570) and the single stage reverse rotating pump to make a custom 4
stage reverse rotating pump?

------------------

You can try. The spacing on the keyways might not line up. The rotors are
keyed to the shaft.

-----------------------

My latest idea:



Seems like it only some little machine work.

 

This would still be a VERY expensive experiment. I think it would be more productive to look at alterative solutions/compromises.

..and is there really such a substantial benefit from a 4stage system over a 3stage that it would be worth buying 2x units and paying a machinist to make it work?

 

I got the 4 stage pump for $480. And if you look at the last picture, i would only use the one pump with the stages/sections reassembled in the other direction.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

- You can lower the engine since the pan no longer has a deep sump.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish that were true for us Honda boys. Unfortunately, the tranny is the lowest point, so adding a dry sump pan does not allow you to lower the engine/tranny any further.

Unless of course you add....say.......a Hewland into the mix

 

so you are you going to give it a go?