Hydrogen injection looks like it would give you significant gain in fuel economy

can the vafc adjust fuel % or is it a air flow converter?? ((:

Anybody know if I can lean out my fuel% with vafc2 or is that subjective

I found: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hy...0.pdf

but i need somebody with moore knowledgeeee pleasse
I would loove to build a simple fuel cell but I dono how to lean the fuel without buying one of the "HAFC" kits

any thoughts r greaaatly appreciated

 

A VAFC only modifies the MAP sensor signal fed to the ECU. This affects the delivered fuel in open loop opration of the ECU, which typically occurs during cold starts and WOT.

 

so the motor doesn't use map signals/information during closed loop?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quicksilver1689 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so the motor doesn't use map signals/information during closed loop?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It does but it corrects with feedback from the O2 sensor during closed loop.

 

The reason that this would not work is because even though you are removing fuel you are also advancing the timming. When you do that you advance you timming which will hurt you horsepower. So to make up for the horsepower loss you have to press the accelerator more to get the same result. Now that you have done this, your motor is not a peak Efficiency and you now wast more fuel than when you started.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by butter99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but i need somebody with moore knowledgeeee pleasse
I would loove to build a simple fuel cell but I dono how to lean the fuel without buying one of the "HAFC" kits </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll focus on this part of the question for now. Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity, not direct mechanical work.

The link that you provided discusses using hydrigen in an internal combustion engine. From glancing through the report, the best option wouild seem to be direct injection of hydrogen due to its preignition tendencies. That would allow for a high compression ratio to achieve greater cycle efficiency.

Now for some practical details. How do you plan to store this hydrogen in a car? You can either compress the hydrogen gas to a high pressure, which is limited essentially by n=PV/(RT), or as a cryogenic liquid in a double dewar. Also, from where do you plan to obtain this hydrogen gas?

 

"hydrogen assist system" =H20 molecules splitting in sealed chamber =H2 and O2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...ction

HAFC=Hydrogen Assist Fuel Cell

It seems as though many people are doing it..no physical evidence of fuel gain but thats why im asking.

examples:

video of training here ~~ http://www.squidoo.com/auto_mechanics_needed

just info ~~ http://mimousa.com/hydrogen/installation.asp

video selling the product ~~ http://video.aol.com/video-det...41205

hafc kit product page ~~ http://www.preignitioncc.com/wjessee/
^^scroll down and you see the "mpg increase" when installed by them^^^

sooooo :/ somebody must have the answer im looking for ~((:
This kit uses an "optimizer" which is wired to your ecu and changes the fuel consumption ..because fuel/hydrogen is used. any ideas what that unit is really manipulating? :/

I spoke to a mechanic who makes bio disel and throws it in his TDI jetta stock 50MPG ..uses an additive also from bioperformance.

also runs bio diesel in an excursion and says he gets better mileage and about 60 cents a gallon..smells like chicken ((:

He says hes soon to build his hydrogen system and hopes for 100 MPG in his jetta!! )) soo 100% increase in expectaions hehe any ideas now?? )

My main question how do you think preignition guarantee 50% increase with installation? How does theyre system work? leaning out fuel + hafc? disconnecting o2 sensor + HAFC?
http://www.preignitioncc.com/wjessee/

Wheres the Honda scholars please d: any answers are a great help thx





Modified by butter99 at 1:04 PM 5/4/2008

 

The product you're looking at does not work. It needs energy to produce the hydrogen which negates any potential savings in fuel economy.

If you get the hydrogen elsewhere and store it in a tank in your car, then you can improve thermal efficiency.

 

In 1970-73 I designed a multiple discharge, high energy, coil on plug, extremely fast rise time (~100 nSec) ignition system to extend engine operation into the lean, low emission, high efficiency mode of operation.

We were wildly successful in the lab when we added 3% hydrogen to the mix. Believe me it works. Not economically sensible to introduce in the 70's, but know that it works, and works well. You need to be way out in the 24 or 28 to 1 AFR for things to get about 30% more efficient in BSFC.

The ignition coils had high frequency ferrite cores, more like what was found on laser trigger devices. A lot of fast high voltage silicon well before the days of fast IGBTs and FETs... ah the memories of all the times "letting the smoke out..." of $50 buck transistors in 1970 $s

 

I agree that hydrogen can improve BSFC from the lean burn concept you're talking about, but my skepticism is in regard to its source.

When you added the 3% hydrogen, where and how was it produced?

 

You are correct. We took it right out of K-bottles from Linde. At the time we did not have a viable (cost effective, safe) method of mobile generation. ... hence it died a "laboratory curiosity" at the time. We sure put everything we had into it at that time... I had equity interest in the company, and the last 30 years would have been very different if we could have commercialized it....

It's now time for you guys to put your creative intelligence and tools against these problems, and give it a twirl... us 'ol guys are getting ready to retire and the world could use some good ideas...

 

If hydrogen was to be produced elsewhere and stored in the car, do you think the savings in gasoline would justify the cost of producing (or purchasing) hydrogen? Do you think the extra weight of the tank would reduce these savings by much more?

 

Dual fuel (where both are needed for operation) vehicles have historical evidence of total failure in the marketplace. In this case, one should respect that evidence. I always thought that in vehicle reforming would be an alternative. But it has yet to be proved cost effective. I could do it with methane as a feed stock, but starting with a liquid is a problem.

I always wondered about God's design parameters, , if only liquid methane had the physical properties of propane we would be "set!"

You are trading the complexity of a simultaneous dual fuel system for 30% efficiency gain. I don't think it is viable at todays prices. Especially when I could match that carnot efficiency with a small, high speed, turbo'd diesel.

If I were to predict the future, I would bet on algae for the biological production of lipids capable of being converted to diesel fuels, and the diesel cycle. Mercedes has it right in Europe, as does a number of asian manufacturers. There would be more diesels in america if it were not for the start up smoke and the attached garages of the USofA.

For info on the algae cycle see:

NREL/TP-580-24190
National Renewal Energy Lab
A Look Back at the Department of Energy's Aquatic Species Program: Biodiesel from Algae (Close Out Report)July 1998
By: J. Sheehan, TG Dunahay, JR Benemann, PG Roessler, JC Weissman

294 Pages. Note this work was published int 1998! 10 years ago!!

 

Great info. Thanks.

 

hmm dual fuel sounds pleasant and inexpensive through electrolysis ~

my question still remains hehe ~ hydrogen is in water ~ can't we take the hydrogen

through electrolysis and inject to the intake~ instead of filling tanks full of compressed

hydrogen ~ I'd love to here alll your thoughts BigMoose! Im hungry for info ~

simple words are helpful also (: ~ I know im making it sound simple but its

probably more complex than my little brain can think up.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...ement


Modified by butter99 at 1:24 PM 5/8/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by butter99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my question still remains hehe ~ hydrogen is in water ~ can't we take the hydrogen

through electrolysis and inject to the intake~ instead of filling tanks full of compressed

hydrogen</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It needs energy to produce the hydrogen which negates any potential savings in fuel economy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Think about the Law of Conservation of Energy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by butter99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> ~ hydrogen is in water ~ can't we take the hydrogen

through electrolysis and inject to the intake~ instead of filling tanks full of compressed

hydrogen ~</TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is that it takes more energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen, than you can extract from burning the hydrogen. So as long as you are producing the hydrogen in the vehicle, using power produced by the engine (alternator really), you're adding complexity for no gain (in fact, a net loss).

The instant you can make more power burning a substance than it took to create, is the instant you found a loophole in conservation of energy, and can build a perpetual motion machine.

To quote Homer Simpson, "Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.".

 

TunerNoob is right, if H2 is your only source of combustion heat. However if it enables a 30% increase in thermodynamic efficiency by being able to run very lean, that may be another story. A system analysis is in order.

To do it, calculate the airflow thru the engine at cruise condition, calculate 3% of that for H2 flow. Convert it to STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) to get SCFM of H2 required. Then calculate the energy required to electrolyze it, and no "over unity" efficiency in the conversion either.. i.e. no Stanley Meyer stuff! Use an efficiency of say 55-65% Brown's gas is likely an OK source for the H2, as the O2 would only help lean ignition. I did not test Brown's gas in the 70's. I can say that less than 2 or 3% H2 won't do it. At least with the combustion spaces we used back then.

Have fun, practice your thermodynamics...

This page might help get you started: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.g....html

 

u sound like the man with the plan thx

http://hydrogengenerator.cc/

sign up (;

 

Thanks, and I wish you much success with your endeavors!

I have been blessed to do novel 'things' with hydrogen over the years. It has been in a research environment, so I have been able to pursue the 'objective' irregardless of cost, and have been able to leave the practical implementation to 'others' as we have explored the 'envelope' so to say.

A few words that mean a lot to me:

"...Accomplished more than I ever dreamed, dreamed more than I ever should. Love to work, love to push the limits, love to build, create and play in His universe. Love to be with my wife and two girls....just spending time together.

...I've worked, I've played, I've served. I've laughed, I've cried, and I've picked up the pieces more times than I can count. Each day, taken one at a time, shaken not stirred. Life is kewl...............

 

Hi Moose!


A few months ago I had fabricated a crude Brown's gas generator of my own. I calculated the total surface area and plate spacing to create a 25 amp current draw. The idea of using an electrolyte worried me so I opted for increased surface area for the anode/cathodes. While this seemed to pump out a decent flow of gas, I doubt it was anywhere near enough.


Fuel ratios were moved to 16-17:1 approx 500 Mbars and under. The end result was no change for me. Lack of constant load source to adjust timing and fueling ratios while monitoring manifold vacuum, rendered my attempt nearly worthless. In fear of the additional current load on the system shifting fickle injector voltages, I removed the generator.

The electrolysis water does require maintenance or else the current draw will increase steadily, with city water at least.

Some day i may try again if I can come up with a way to create a constant load on the engine.

Take care Moose

 

Top of the morning to you GM!

Good to see you experimenting. The 30% BSFC improvements thermodynamically are way out in the 24 to 28 to 1 AFR range. You can snag a few percent running 15.5 to 17 ish to 1 AFR but you blow NOx thru the roof at those AFRs because flame temperatures are higher.

Take a look at this http://www.engine-expo.com/06e...b.pdf I did a quick google and it has some interesting plots. Page 26 in insightful. I need to read it in detail.

Keep thinking, keep testing. I think high fuel costs are here to stay. The world, it 'tis a changin' ...

Gotta run to the day job...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQl1q7XJ6Ng

 

ya roy knows a few things

I took his advice and many other ideas off utube and built a cell with 4 inch blank square cover plates .. about 50 of them slapped them in 6inch pvc

was using a dc charger and the cell was pulling 25 amps and kept tripping the overload or somthing and i would have to wait a few min and do it again..

It was bubbling hydrogen very well!!

my plans are to stick on my little 49cc 4 stroke bike haha.. just interested i guess
than ill put it in the car just for giggles...