if the car rolls over you cant roll with the car meaning the roof will cave and k.ill you.


[Modified by Kamin, 3:06 PM 12/16/2002]

so the car rolls, and the driver doesn't?
wow...i'd love to see that!!!
gotta be a trip.

i don't need to ask this in any forum.
why do you need those guys to stick up for you?

im just sick of answering this stupid *** question
what dont you understand?
ITS NOT SAFE WITHOUT A ROLLBAR!
stock seatbelts allow you to tuck in if you rollover in an accident
a 4 point harness wont
the ONLY harness that will is a 3point.

I am not going to even waste my time reading this whole thread because I see a shitload of uneducated idiots who are talking out there asses.

Here is the deal and this comes from studies done on crash data from racing accidents that were studied by people with years of experience in racing, engineering and trauma medicine. Take my word for it - or don't. I don't really care. Just know that I trust these people's advice a lot more than I trust what comes out of the mouth of some stunna on Honda-Tech whose idea of competition is fist fighting for the 15 year old **** hanging out at the Stop & Go.

Before we get started on the tech info let me explain that a rollbar is not a rollcage. The 2 are NOT the same thing. A rollbar is 4-6 mounting points but the roof support stops behind the driver/passenger seats.

4-Point Rollbar (Not a rollcage):


6-Point Rollbar (Still not a rollcage):


A rollcage has roof support that extends to the front of the passenger compartment and around the front of it.

6-Point Rollcage:



Harness Without Rollover Protection:
A harness without some form of rollover protection can be deadly - very easily. A harness holds you firmly upright in your seat and it is DESIGNED to keep you in place, not letting you slide down. This trait is precisely what can smoting you. If you roll your car and the roof comes down the harness will keep you upright and the collapsing roof will break your neck. The stock belts will allow the roof to push/slide you down in the seat. This gives you the room and give necessary to keep your neck from being snapped. If you plan on using a harness on the street for daily driving then GET some kind of rollover protection. If you drive regularly on the street stay away from a rollcage ("Why" is answered below) and just get a rollbar. Autocrossing in a harness IMO is dumb as well BUT it is a much more controlled enviornment than the street is and you will probably be ok with a harness and no rollover protection. Also - *many* organizations will not let you drive on track wearing a harness without rollover protection. This includes HPDEs and Lapping Days.


Rollbar/Cage In A Street Car:
If you drive your car on the street and don't want to wear a helmet everywhere you go then stay away from a cage and get a bar. Whoever said "pad it and you will be fine" is a complete ***-licking fucktard swamp donkey who doesn't know ****. First of all - bare head + steel tubing = cracked skull. Very simple to understand. In a crash you will have 2 impacts. The first is with whatever you hit and the second is between your body and the various parts of your interior (steering wheel, windshield, door, etc). Having those tubes around your head just gives you a nice firm object to hit and smoting yourself on. If you daily drive your car then get a 4-point rollbar which will remain behind your head at all times.

Now on to the padding. Rollbar padding is pretty much useless against the typical forces in an impact. People get knocked unconscious all the time in accidents when their HELMET-COVERED heads hit PADDED rollcages. Even the good SFI padding is only marginally effective against crash forces. Let me take a piece of SFI padding and take a swing at the assclown who thinks padding will help. I GUARANTEE you that I will knock him out with it. SFI padding is hard as hell and I know I can't swing with the force of a 50MPH impact. If I can knock him out with it what do you think it will do to your head in a crash?


Harness 4pt vs. 5pt. vs 6pt:
STAY THE **** away from a 4-point unless the idea of broken ribs and a crushed pelvis appeals to you. In an impact a 4-point will ride up your torso and break all kinds of **** in your chest area and upper abdomen region. NO organizations allow them on track for either racing or HPDE/Lapping Days.

5-points are good and they do their job. The key is to make sure that the sub belt comes through the seat BEHIND where the latch will be sitting when you wear the belt. Certainly not all cars/configurations will allow this arrangement and it isn't the end of the world. Having the sub in front of the latch however will cause the sub to loosen as your body pushes forward in an impact. The sub will eventually tighten however, and prevent the lapbelt from riding too far up - but it still loosens briefly which will allow your body to gain more momentum before it is snapped/grabbed by the harness.

The 6-point is the best option as it takes the sub and splits it off to the left and right. This spreads the force over a larger area and prevents more movement than a single sub strap will.


Race Seat vs. Stock Seat w/Harness:
This one is open to more interpretation. Here is what I know however: If you get a deep bucket race seat (ie: a non-reclining type) then you will need harnesses because the seat is simply too deep for the stock belts to be real effective in a crash. Certainly there is no reason why you can't use a harness with a stock seat however. Also keep in mind that a race seat offers NO protection from a collapsing roof. It is not designed to. Its purpose is to give your back a solid, flat surface to be held up against butit will not hold a crushing downward force from above.


Here is the PROPER way to mount a harness system per the FIA - whose safety standards end up carrying over into just about every other motorsports organization except the NHRA and NASSCAR:





That is the facts. Take it or leave it.

Yes, please find me a pic of a 94-97 Acura Integra 4-door FLIPPED OVER with the roof crushed to extent that the driver's head would be crushed. Please.How about a BMW M3? We all know they are much more solidly-engineered than any Honda product.



FYI - Neither the driver or instructor were wearing race harnesses and they both walked away. If they had harnesses on they would both be dead. I know both the driver and instructor personally and have spoken to them about the crash.


How about a Mustang?







Once again, the driver and instructor both walked away with nothing more than a broken leg and broken feet. The use of factory belts saved their lives. The driver was pinned on top of the instructor, who was wedged down in the footwell under the dash but they survived. Had they been wearing harnesses both of their heads would be in their lower backs now.

Hi all. I just HAD to register and post on this one.

Drew M is abso-*******-lutely correct on this one. The sheer ignorance and insolence of NOINTEGreddy is astounding. Racing harnesses are not even the remotest of necessities when driving on the street. If they were, doesn't it stand to reason that manufacturers would have incorporated them into the initial design of the the car? If you're even considering installing harnesses without a bar, using them on the street, or settling for less than a 5-point design please read Drew M's post then re-read it.

I managed to locate these pictures of rolled Hondas on images.google.com: