looking for oem fuel and timing maps but mostly fuel, if anyone would have any pictures or links of original fuel maps in either lambda or a/f ratio it would be appreciated.

 

wich ones are you looking for?

 

A b16a2 motor would be nice but from what I know all b series should be the same.

What I was looking for is what the manufaturers are having the cars run at.

From the info I gathered

Stock and Moderate Performance Engines
Idle and Cruise: 14:1-15.5:1
Moderate Load: 13:1-14:1
Wide-Open Throttle: 12.2:1-13:1

Large Cams and Race Engines
Idle and Cruise: 13:1-15:1
Moderate Load: 12.5:1-13.5:1
Wide-Open Throttle: Typically 12.5:1-12.7:1 at peak torque and 13-13.2:1 at peak HP

Supercharged/Turbo-charged/Nitrous Applications
Boost Conditions: 10.8:1-11.8:1 for safe operation

I want to see what the oem has on their fuel maps

 

http://www.pgmfi.org

Tons of maps, baselines, etc. Excellent site for information

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superdupervtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A b16a2 motor would be nice but from what I know all b series should be the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Very much not.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superdupervtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I want to see what the oem has on their fuel maps</TD></TR></TABLE>

The fuel maps aren't displayed by AF ratios or lambda values, because that's not how the ecu works. It doesn't know for air/fuel ratio unless it has a wideband, and even the ecus with widebands have the same type of maps, they just adjust the fuel values with more precision. The ecu uses injector pulse width as the values on the maps, and applies correction factors for everything from there.

 

Thanks for the link

I know how oem fuel maps work, they work on duty cycle or pulse width and values given mean they are either adding or removing fuel.

Honda has been pre-programed that under wot the injectors are 100 duty cycle and the difference from gsr to sir is the fuel pressure that defines fuel under wot.

What I would like was a fuel map of an the ideal a/f ratios in the fuel map.
I would like to know what honda or toyota or any manufacturer think the ideal a/f ratio would be under certain rpm/loads.

I would like to know how rich or how lean i could possibly go for areas other the wot.


Modified by superdupervtec at 3:01 PM 10/25/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superdupervtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda has been pre-programed that under wot the injectors are 100 duty cycle and the difference from gsr to sir is the fuel pressure that defines fuel under wot.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sort of, yes. Most of the maps wind up with 100% duty cycle, or close to it, at WOT and redline, and you're right that they change the fuel pressure to accomplish this. But the rest of the maps differ greatly, even throughout the rpm range at WOT. To say that all B series maps are the same because they all wind up at 100% duty cycle neglects 99% of the map.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superdupervtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I would like was a fuel map of an the ideal a/f ratios in the fuel map.
I would like to know what honda or toyota or any manufacturer think the ideal a/f ratio would be under certain rpm/loads.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well the first problem is that Honda or Toyota or any manufacturer doesn't tune the ecu to deliver the absolute maximum power the engine could provide. They put a safety factor in to allow for a really hot day, or bad gas, etc, to avoid running lean and detonating. The maps are also tuned rich as a fail safe, and "fine tuned" to stoich with the O2 sensor. So if you calculated the AF ratio based on pulse width, fuel pressure, RPM, VE, etc, you would still wind up with values that are richer than they should be. Crome has a display of the "Target AF Ratios" which approximates this in the maps, but looking at the stock maps reveals what I'm talking about, the AF ratio starts approaching 12:1 at the top end under WOT.

If you want to tune the engine for the most power, it can't be done sitting around theorizing, unfortunately. You need a dyno and a wideband O2 sensor. Then you can find the optimum AF ratio for that engine and tune for the most power. But you can't sit there and say that motor X will want an AF ratio of 13.6 at 5400 rpm and 4.87 inhg and plug it in and go. You need a feedback loop to monitor the effect of the changes on the motor.

 

I am going to be using a wideband and egt to optimize fuel and ignition.

I agree that pulse width between a gsr and sir for example will be different, I'm not saying other, your totally right that the injector duty cycles between them are different.

But most manufacturers have tested their vehicles with a wideband before letting the cars go into mass production and they have tried for certain a/f ratios under certain areas.

I don't mind tuning 90 percent of the ecu safe.

My goal is to tune the ecu almost identical through every column as to oem because I want maximum effeciency and fuel economy.
I want it safe and reliable because I don't demand full power at those load/speeds.

As long as my wot is tuned for max power, that is all I care for.

Casue If I demand max power it will be with the throttle matted.

Just doing research to see what numbers I should be looking to achieve under certain columns. I'm not worried about wot, that probably the easier one to tune.


Modified by superdupervtec at 3:30 PM 10/25/2005

 

Then don't worry about what Honda has, if you have the wideband and egt, you're set. Tune for cruising at 14.7-15.5 or so for best fuel economy, and slowly move towards 13.2:1 or whatever you wind up with for max power as you get closer to WOT. You will usually need more fuel at lower rpms under load, as that condition tends to cause more knock. At higher rpms and load, you can run a little leaner. Idle at 14.7 unless it's not stable, in which case play around with it a bit, rich is usually more stable than lean, but too rich and it will misfire. Once you have your fuel tuned, work on timing, and you've got the right idea with the egt. In each cell of the maps, advance timing until you either lose power or detect knock. If the car tends to accellerate as you add timing, that's good; you're finding more power.

 

Another thing that bugs me is I am looking into a j&s safeguard. Aem has the knock sensor enabled to work with the oem knock sensor, but the feedback I'm getting is that loud engines with high lift cams, comp, etc can throw the knock sensor off.
It bugs me that most people tune knock by ear rather then computer controlled.
If I tune the ignition on a warm day and then the next day if that much hotter, all my dyno time was sort of wasted cause I could now be experiencing knock.

Msd also has a knock sensor with adjustable sensitivity for highly modified engines.

I hope that feature works better then people claim cause if it works properly then I don't have to worry so much case the ecu will automatically adjust.


Modified by superdupervtec at 6:45 PM 10/25/2005