Hi,

What does one need to program ecus? A hondata rom editor and programmer? Also where can you get the code for the mugen, spoon etc.. programs??

Thanks!

Ray

 

few different things, most people keep it a secret...

but a burner (reader/writer 28pin (27C256 in particular) eproms for 85-95 hondas/mazdas/pontiacs/mustangs)

then a good program which usually comes with the burner...

programs from other ecu programers, or copy of chips from mugen or spoon oem ecus...or improving the factory program...(i sell just the programs if interested) whole CD of different non-obd, obdi, mazda, mitsubishi you can expand to ford, gm and many others....

other then that the rest is a secret....but can be sold at right $$$, so you can start your own business

 

you sell copies of programs for 88-96 hondas?
vtec and non vtec?
how much for just a program on a chip?

 

Hey what's up Adrian? Long time no hear. What happend to the b16a? Y does it say no more?

Anyways, just wanted to add to your post that the mugan, spoon etc... CRAP does not do shiet except change the ignition timeing in most cases, which you can do yourself at home with a help of a timming gun. The proper way of tunning an ECU is with a wide band O2 sensor, a good a/f meter and I don't mean the Autometer crap. Then you need the burner as you mentioned, as well as a laptop and a tunning software program that will change your maps and ignition timing. Oh ya, and you need to install a bay in your ecu. This should run you about $5000us that is why I do not belive in the programs that people sell all over these boards. Just my .02 cents, but will help some people with their decision making.

 

rafal bring over your car...i'll let you try some of my chips, which are copies of OEM JDM ecus such as spoon and so on...and if it makes more power then your Yoshio tuned then you be more then suprised defiantly it be an improvement over the stock ecu....which his ecu claims...

the only problem you run into, is that, no two engines are the same...but physics are physics...also at times you get lucky....check my dyno on the site a true 10whp gain from a mugen program, same program on a stock b16a, 6whp, another car also gained 3whp, and another lost 10whp but after he lowered the fuel pressure power went up to 12whp, have some of my dynos to prove it...so its not like, they do not make power...

its maybe becuase people are used to seeing it for as much as 5x more expenisve, and then they see that they could of got it for much less...

think were he got his programs...he uses a Mugen or spoon program just edits them, and alters them....he is no genius...at times he gets lucky but he charges 10x times more then i do, for 1/10 of the money i can give a chip which will also gain you as similiar gains over a stock program,...

also very soon i am going to dyno my sohc vtec, with some other program, you're welcome to come with me...and see for yourself...




[Modified by eg6ajk, 4:13 PM 11/1/2001]

 

First of all Adrian my car was not tuned by Yoshio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And physics are physics, but in your case I see you are mixing things up. No two cars are identical asspecially when you are modifying them. The quantities of air and fuel mixtures are differnt all the time and derived by the means of calculus by your ECU so with the smallest changes there could be quite different effects (I think you are missing some Mechanical in this case since you have enough knowledge of computers). I am really sorry for your misunderstanding of the way cars are tunned, but if you wish to attend the next time one of our crew (civichybrids) will be tunning their cars you are very welcome. The name of the tunner is Poul, I can't recall the last name, but I can pass you his phone number if you wish. He has been tunning race cars for about 15 years now, and I mean real race cars such as GT Porshas, Vetts, etc. So yes he does know his stuff, but ofcourse the stuff he does is no magic changing a/f ratio and ignition timing is no brains and you could do it too, if you had the equipment! Unfortunatelly for you seeing a dyno plot that increased by about 6hp is the proof that there was a miracle performed, but remember the time when you put that "Spoon" (in quotations since it was only chipped) ECU in your hatch, what happend? Well your original timing must of been a bit off and when you through that ecu in, which added more ignition timing the car boged since it automatically retarded the timing back. Well with that in mind on a stock engine yes I will agree with you, it will give you some gains, but what I am saying is that by moving your distributor forward a littel, you will gain the same effect. No point wasting $40 is there? Fortuantely I had the opportunity to try quite a few of these so called Mugan, Spoon, etc programs with Paul when we were trying to get a base program for my car and non of them changed the a/f maps which is the most important part of tunning the engine, and it was easyer to use the stock maps in the end. I am not going in to more details since it will be just too much, but one thing for sure with proper tunning you will see results like mine from a mear 167whp to 194whp, now that's what I call a well tunned ECU. And remember it is still not perfect cause the 12hr that I spend tunning it is still nothing compared to the conditions your car sees every day 365 days a year for how many years you drive it.

ps. So what happend to that b16a of yours?

 

I disagree with your statement about modified ecu programming, I have the dynocharts, 1/4 mile times, and customers to show for it. Yes, nto all motors are the same, but they are similar to an extent in that with same rod ratio, intake manifold length, header design and similar compression ratio, you can show a increase in HP (which I've done on the dyno many times). Obviously, a programmable management gives a lot more flexibility and room for improvement but you simply cannot dismay certain ecu programs.

I've made special programs using Locash as I've given him the values to use and have been very successful.

Greg

 

Well, my dear fello enthusiasts, the problem with simple guessing on the specifications that you want to use for your map programs is just that, guessing. If you are willing to put your proudly earned money, spend on modifying your engine, to a test such as using a guesstimate numbers for fuel and ignition timing, which in result might be close but will never be right on, be my guest. Unfortuantely people are too concerned with minimal gains that they see on the dyno plot of 5,6 or even 10whp that they are willing to sacrafice the drivability, and durability of their engines. When it comes to a/f ratios you can not guess. First of all in order to produce the programs you have in your stock ecu the manufacturer spend a long time developing and opimizing these maps in order for your engine to last as long as they do last. And also by changing parts that are similar to what you know your friend has on his engine does not mean that they will perform the same on your engine, like you have mentioned above. Let me give you an example, after tunning my car we tried to use my program to gain a head start on tunning my friend's car, which we thought had a similar setup so the a/f ratio should have been close enough to be able to just massage it a bit and save some tunning time. His engine ITR intake manifold, TB, 4-1 header, similar cr. same head, aggressive cams, seems all to be the same. When we actually used my program on the eninge, we were very surprised to find that the engine characteristics were totaly different, and the program was actually producing such discrepencies that we just started from the base program in the end. Why do you think this happend? Well for one there is so many variables when it comes to engines that you can not assume that if you have similar or even the same parts on two identical engines they will produce the same results. Even with such minimal difference as different engine oil used, your dyno polt can show a variance of up to 5whp, and remember one VERY important thing your dyno corrected charts are also estimates so from day to day you can also have as much as 5whp or more difference in your gains. So please do not steer yourself in the direction of thinking that when you see a number on a printout that increased by x amount of hp to think that it must of been the part, cause there is way too many variables that can affect the results. All a dyno is, is a machine that will allow you to astimate your engine's torque at the specific moment with the specific variables, but the next day it could be totaly diffent experience. Unfortunately people like to take the simple way out and use such numbers as proof. Guessing might be the way you like to tune your engine, but I assure you,you are not getting the optimum a/f, and ignition timing maps wich will only show after a while when your engine's durability suffers. Well good luck to you and Adrian, in your search for the mystry numbers.

PS. Adrian I am still intersted what happend to that b16a of yours'?

 

just in rebatle to your 3-10whp in gain from $100 worth off a computer program if you don't think that worth it then why bother with a exhaust or header or even intake (you have them on don't you),

also i don't think the oil could do it or even athmoshperic or elevation changes (ever seen a dyno move in matter off second or seen pressure or temp go up and down more then 1-2% in less then few mintues, not unless there is a storm passing through) yes the numbers are corrected, but variables, do not change within few mintues off next run...so by saying that, its a fluke, is not right...
so by bolting on a intake which might gain you 1-2hp, is bogus too...remeber that, you could just wait till it gets colder and gain that power, but what if you add it together (wow now you have +2hp more on top of the gains due to densities)

also by bringing down my programs you put down the engineers who worked hard to design a spoon program or feels, which later charged the general public, about $600-1200, i am selling you exactly the same thing for 1/10, and you're saying its a rip off...then i guess, the japanese tuner don't know what they are doing and should hook up with the guy from toronto to do all the work for them....its like copyinng cds or tapes it still are able to enjoy it...i never said this would give you 50whp or 10whp but will defiantly be improvemnt over stock ecu....also not everyone can go and spend $1000+ to get a custom ecu with 50hrs of dyno, to gain 5whp if they can do that for $100...also speed limiter, other sensors, such as those for ls/vtec, make it easier...so just don't look at it blindly...

on the lighter note...
the motor has been sold, going the cheap route, d15b sohc vtec...going for high 14's-low 15's all motor (be even with GSRs and kick some SIR/si ***), with budget under $500......you might say its impossible but will see...(mikes 1.6l did it with 15.4....) so i think there is still improvement...

its got a LSD tranny with it too, and nice reprogrammed ecu...(damn i disabled the knock sensor...screw no drivabilty problems here)




[Modified by eg6ajk, 6:28 PM 11/2/2001]

 

Hey Screamer,
Is that the same guy that did hondata in Dan's civic.
I am assuming you have hondata? If not what do you have?
I've seen you around we have mutal friends.

 

interesting...to say the least..

you guys both have valid points...

 

this is all very interesting to me. I have been wondering how to re-program an ECU for some time, but no one ever wants to explain it to anyone. So please tell me. WHERE CAN YOU LEARN THIS TRAIT? I'm interested and willing to learn, just no one to teach it to me.
Thank you
jason

 

Well Adrian, I am not trying to make you seem like an enemy here for trying to make a buck. You are absolutaly entitle to do that and I have nothing against that or you for that matter. I hope you still treat me as a friend in fact. And please do not jump all over me for stating my opinion, I am trying to give everyone a good and clear opinion, which unfortunately no one was offering to me when I was tunning my engine. As to your comments regarding the temperature and the the dyno, etc. please reread my previous posts again, maybe than you will make some sense of what I was saying, and if that doesn't help try taking mechanical engineering courses or reading some boods on subject such as thermodynamics and fuluidmechanics that should help you understand the different factors affecting the potential of your engine.

What I am trying to point out is that these programs that you are selling are nothing more than simeple changes to the ignition timing. And I am not putting anyone down, not even the engineers at Spoon, Mugan, etc. like you have mentioned, since their programs were designed to do their specific job in the enviroment they were ment to be used in, not with a stock ECU, and not with a highy modified engines. How can I proove this? Well first of all the actual ECU's that you buy from one of the aftermarket companies are different in a sence, than your stock ECU. Since they are modified to be tunned properly to specifications (use with a specific setup, that is street use oriented). This can be even seen by the limitations of a stock ECU when trying to change the vtec maps with the use of an external piggy back modifier (which an aftermarket ECU doesn't even need). This means that when you change your vtec point with the help of a Fields' a/f / vtec controller, etc, your maps do not actually change to the vtec map at that particular instance, but stay in the corresponding map of your original stock ECU predetermined program until the change point (RPM) occures. While with your purchased aftermarket ecu's that is already changed and the appropriate maps are corelated with the vtec switchover point. And I know this since I am having this exact problem with my setup. I am useing a chip setup, which always causes problems at the vtec switch over point. Problems meaning that the a/f ratio is not correct at the instance when the vtec kicks in causing surges and incorrect mixture levels at part throtle (full throtle is accaptable since the program progresses so quickly that it is unnoticable), and since it is such a small of an instace the mapping table would have to be 100 times more accurate to be able to trick the computer and make the maps as smooth as with a normal vtec change over, for a good driveablitiy. This is only temporary though until I get some cash and go with a Hondata setup, which allows you to change your maps accordingly. Also another reason why I disagree with you about the programs you are providing is that in the end I did not advance any ignition timing with my setup because I was loosing power. Once again I am not saying this will happen in evey case, but there is a much greater chance when the engine is modified to a greater extent. This explains why your chips will not work in hightly modified engines, with different parts. Since any aftermarket company that sells such an ECU has a very strict application for their ECU's, meaning, listing of all the required parts that you need or a crate engine, to be able to safely use such a program. By the way where did you aquire these programs you are claiming that these are leget copies of the actual aftermarket tunner companies programs, do you have any proof?

I already agreed with you that you will get some power gains with these programs on stock to slightly modified (I,E,H) engines, if you may recall, since your are changing the timing, but you can do that as well by moving your distirbutor. Unfortunately your programs will not work for people that are doing much more modifying than your simple boltons, since the fuel maps are not changed. I guess I did not explain myself enough when I was addressing the importance of tunning the fuel maps when you make such modifications as changing cams and cr. You have to understand that by just taking a program and saying it is better than your stock program since it gave you some gains, is not right, you are missleading yourself in to beliving that any gain is a good gain. Unfortunately on some of the modifications such as aggresive cams the programs may cause problems do to advanced igintion timing, a specially when you consider that you might be starving an engine of fuel at the same time. Please do not try to convince me with dyno charts that are showing you minimal gains, cause I assure you I understand what you are saying, since I alredy tried such programs and I know what they exactly do.

And the most important point that I want to make is that if someone spends couple of thousands of dollars on performance parts as well as even more money on putting it all together. I really doubt that they would want to oversee the full potential of their engine by limiting themselves to a program that might or might not do anything for them in the end. In other words, do means justify the end? Will the $40 program be any good when takeing into consideration that you will have to reprogram the fuel maps anyways?

And just to clarify your misinterpretation of tunning ECU's, it is not balck art it is very logical and simple process that should be considered as the end part to a successful installation or modification for your engine, in any way. And it does not cost as much as you have stated, since in my case I paid $700cnd for tuning of my ECU (that is with dyno time) and I think eveyone will agree that the money was worth evey penny when you consider the gains of almost 30whp and the driveability that I am getting from the car. I don't think there is anything out there that can come close the the power gains for that kind of cash. If you do know of any such thing let me know I will be the first in line.

As to the SOHC choice you made, I think it is a great choice. If I was able to turn back the clock and go back in time I would probably go with SOHC turbo as well since for a very reliable setup that I could run on the track, quarter mile as well as on the street I would pay less than what I have spend already on my setup.
good luck to you with your new venture and hope to see you in the 14s, and maybe even 13s.

ps. If you are not mad at me to the point where you don't want to talk to me over my opinions covered in this thread, I would like to ask you for a favor. Call me if you can.


To eveyone, I am sorry this got a bit personnal, it shouldn't of had happend since we are all here to share the information freely and for eveyone's benefit.

 

Yes, Paul is the same guy that tuned Dan's ECU.
As I have mentioned above I do not have Hondata yet, but hopefully someday, can't wait.
Can you remind me of something that I might recognize you by?

Thanx

 

b16a2pwr,

If you have any questions just keep posting them, sometimes it takes time for the people that do know the answer to your question to read the thread, or to take time to wrigt back. If you have any questions now bring them on, we'll all try to help you.

 

Let me start off by saying... I LOVE THIS SITE. Of all the forums that I am a member of, I am blown away by this thread. I think that I have learned more in this thread that I have reading any other thread on the web. I thank you for that. I'll start off by saying that I have a little knowledge about my car. It's a 1992 Civic CX hatchback with a 2000 GS-R motor. I did all the work myself (install and everything) I was thinking of doing some modifications i.e headwork and things of that sort to make power, but after reading this thread, I think that I have changed my mind. I want DYNO TIME and a really really good A/F Meter. I want to thank everyone that has posted here for the knowledge that they gave me. I would like your view of modifications to make my car (all motor) get LOW 13's.

 

Rafal, i am not mad at all, you have an opinion, and so do I, but like stated before, I wouldn't sell something that doesn't do anything. Agree with me that for $40 or $100 (depends on how much work you want to do) you cannot get a chip, that will remove the speed limiter, improve the power , extend your rev limit or even convert your dreaded auto ecu to 5spd........

I have tested repeatedly on dynos, and in 1/4 (not my car only), A/F mixture (yes autometer-the cheap one), and yes each program different igntion as well as different fuel mapping....and most programs are yes street but they there is some such as Mugen which are design specificlly for N1 racing

as far as timing maps, when you move the distributor you will gain or loose power in a certain section of the powerband....with a chip, certain rev ranges have lower ignition timing (less advanced then others), so when you improve the top gains you do not eliminate mid or low range gains....

as far as fuel, its also upgraded...its not like its left stock...for one. Mugen program, runs fairly rich, good for turbo or NOS setup....spoon is more of a street program and benefits from little better ignition timing and rev limit removed...vision or feels both iginition and fuel improved to match that of bolt ons as well as milder cams, and extended revlimit...that is why you see the revlimits, this high its simply because the cam it was tuned for....

 

Hey Adrian,

I am glad that this is stoped being personnal and you are cool with my opinions. But once again you are generalizing the progams to be good or better for FI or NOS etc. please do not make such statements unless you have specific setups for the following programs since it will confuse some of the less experienced people. Ofcoruse your programs will work with certain setups just like I explained in the previous post, but you can not state that since the ignition timing is set at different rpm levels it will benefit your whole power band. Remember what I said, in the end i left my igintion timing stock and my engine is quite extensively modified.

To comment on one of the comments of our fellow enthusiasts, that he will be purchasing a good a/f ratio gauge and go from there, it is a good idea, but remember that in order for your a/f gauge to read properly you have to have a wide band O2 sensor which can run $1000 + . This is why I was sying that it is a good idea to find someone that can tune the ECU and has all the correct equipment to do it. In the end it will be cheaper to pay someone for their time.

Good luck with the project guys and ask all the questions you need. I am sure there will be someone to help you guys with them, and I will try my best as well.

 

b16a2pwr,

Well to get your car into 13's is not that dificult in fact you should be pritty close with the stock motor, as you are. On the parts you will need to get to low 13's I will only comment on the setups that I have experienced bulind or helped in building.

First of all I can explain my setup and comment on any questions, as to why I went with this part or that part.
My Setup:

JDM B18C (SIR-G) engine (same as GSR, but with 10.6:1 cr)
USDM ITR tranny (LSD a must, and cheap compared to other alternatives)
ITR TB (boared and polished by me, some help, I guess)
Skunk2 intake manifold (same as the ITR intake manifold. Helps a lot with a high reving cam such as Toda Bs,C, or Jun 3s)
ITR intake valves (These valves are undercut for better flow characteristics at high rpm)
outer ITR valve springs and portflow inner valve springs (rev capability of 9500rpm)
Ti retainrs (allow for that higher reving)
Mugan head gasket (to raise compression + head was milled 5 thou.)
About 11:1 cr with the above
Jun stage 3 cams ( very good cams for high reving capbilities as well as drivability, might not be as aggressive in the low end as Toda Bs, but the idle is perfect. For hardcore use I would recommend Toda Bs, but might have idle problems)
4-1 DC header (not the best peace, but will do once I modify it to 2.5" collector.
ITR b-pipe (for now, money restiction. Even though I like the quietness of it on the street due to the double resonator it is a very restrictive peace)
Ractive muffler (Needs to be changed ASAP, no money though )
ITR fuel pump
B&M fule pressure regulator
B&M fule pressure gauge
Toda Chromly flywheel (an excellent peace, love it, love it, love it, very nice revving capability, and most of all frees power)
ACT extreme / street/strip disk ( very reliable and smooth clutch, it is a pain the the trafic, but what the hell y not.)
fields vtec controller (Used just as a switch to change the vtec point)
ECU programed to above specifications on dyno (took quite some time about 12hrs total of dyno and street driving, but very nice and smooth accept the vtec switch over point. Hondata will be needed someday)
Well that's about it.
Future plans:
Definitively 2.5" exhaust
Hondata
and mayby some NOS for the ocasional Vette!

I have also helped with other build ups including building of my (missing) ITR and a friends Ontario GT challenge cup hatch with high cr and aggressive cams.

Hope this helps.

 

Great thread. I dont have the option of access to a good honda tuner without a 4 hour drive (Calgary?) and 8+ for a hondata dealer. I plan on going turbo in the spring and a properly tuned ecu is a pretty good idea. Heres the thing, do i go with a vafc, save money with a 2b or something hondata and make one trip to bc, or get a 4b and mess with it myself? Shoud i just pick up the apexi unit for now? I go to college but i make enough cash during summer for the turbo, but the money might not be there for repairs if i go with hondata. Personal experiences welcome.

 

I would probably go with the Hondata 2b since it will be sufficient for low boost. Unfortunately even if you go with 4b you will still need a wide band O2 sensor and a good a/f gauge, which can run up wards of $2500 + for both. So the best choice is to go with Hondat 2b and make that trip, even combining it with some vacation, cause a single day might not be enough, since there is always that you forget something.

 

Anybody have anything to say about chip programming? Like what tools....where to get the software..etc?

Thanks

 

Yeah, what do we need..to do all this and were can we get it ?


[Modified by TRuST, 11:11 AM 11/6/2001]

 

This thread was very informative, and it shed a light on something I was not really aware of.
TUNING is the gateway from having a good engine or a Great engine!!
Thanks for all the great info guys.

 

So eg6ajk and Greg, what kind of hardware and software are you guys using to program these chips ?