i've been in a little discussion with a friend of mine. I really want to put a b18c in my crx but he just suggested why not a type r? So my question is a b18c5 really worth the extra $2000? I know it would respond better and it has a better tranny than the gsr motor, but is all that worth the extra 2g? i do intend to stay all motor with this and once it is ready for the swap it will no longer be a daily driver but i still want it to be streetable.

 

lets start with the...

block:

stronger block, lighter rotating mass, $1300 replacement value on crankshaft which is lightened and balanced, oil cooler, higher flow oil pump for increased output and increased wear for the track, domed pistons, higher native static
CR

price to modify from C1:
ITR pistons with rings, wristpins (reuse B18C1 rods) = 450
teardown costs: up to you to find 3-500 seems fair for a refresh if hes not killin ya
crankshaft..>:? 1300 bucks baby and its worth every penny. you can have yours micropolished... but thats bucks too. I dont know all of what needs to be done here for bearing tolerances... but the C1 crank is strong... but the C5 one is that much better..! 500-1300 bucks same stroke, lighter
ITR oil pump: 175
ITR oil cooler: ? havent researched.. 300 seems right for a similar kit like JR
might as well do mains and rodbearings/thrustwashers...: 250

Head:

the head is a B16cast, but honda massages it for higher compression flow and high rpm HP/TQ numbers. The valvesprings are safe to 8600 rpm or so, just dont miss a gear on a downshift from 3 to 2 at 85mph.. its possible... done it. Stock rev limit is 8400 at the ecu/engine. Cams are 240/235, 25deg of overlap stock 11.5/10.5 lift,
the intake manifold is single stage and makes more upper and lower rpm power. midrange natively suffers. Lost motrion assemblies for the VTEC followers are fitted with wider pads and stiffer springs. Intake valves are 12% lighter, cut differently, have tapered stems and have more compression area (less dished) than GSR.

the right head port job on C1 head: 450
ITR valvetrain, valves, valvesprings and LMAs: 650
you would want ITR yellow outers, portflow/itr inner intake springs all around
with LMAs for the cams, yet the CTR intake cam is the one to buy.
CTR intake/ITR exhaust: 500
Titanium retainers: 300 < you will want some of these...
dont forget a head kit (seals and gaskets): 250
ITR intake manifold/62mm TB: 500
intake? ITR TB requires a larger diameter on that R/S with a larger
intake opening to make more power up top... AEM CAI or SR for ITR: 250

Clutch is better... enter cost here:200 at least
flywheel is 15lbs: 200
tranny is much better with lsd:1500
ITR ECU is more performance oriented: dont know that you would buy...
but try 500
hey... you would lose the cruise control! I am sure you could wire that up...
better radiator: 250


am I leaving anything out?

B18C1 USDM HP 170 @ 7600/128 TQ at 6200
B18C5 USDM HP 195 @ 7800/130 TQ at 6500?

these engines do feel and behave totally different in stock
form. If you havent driven an ITR... oh man you need to.

so you say is the extra 2K worth it? hmmm.

1300+450+500+175+300+250+450+650+500+300+250+500+2 50+200+200+
1500+500+250 mainly parts... = $8525 ever wonder how dudes that sell ITR
parts have project cars???

if I had the choice... I would get the Hmmm... lemme think

The ITR is more mod friendly as it can handle more wear inherently
and is engineered for abuse. My advise would be to wait and get
the R motor

 

ok i'm starting to see your point.....lol.........thanks for such an excellent answer to my question. but ponder this one for me friend.......

why do hot dogs come in packs of 10 and hot dog buns come in packs of 8????

lol j/k but one more real question, better cams toda c's or spoon c's for the ITR?

 

Trust me on this one: A stock b18c5 powered CRX blows the socks from a (mildly)tuned B16 one

 

so ITR better swap than LSVTEC or CR-VTEC?

 

the ITR is a tuned car from the factory and is much more
reliable in its stock form than a LSVTEC or a CRVTEC.
You have to depend on DR Frankenstien being on his game
to the tune of your car's reliability. In this case, you know the
engine came from Honda this way and can handle in its stock
form about 30% more power everyday reliably. Best for
ITR? I would say once you replace the exhaust springs with
ITR Yellow outers and install stiffened inner springs and Ti
retainers... Jun3s or Skunk2stage2s.

http://www.allmotorhonda.com < has the cam specs.

ciao

 

um, hell yes if you want reliability!

you can match the power of a C5 if you ultimately go B18C/GSR/SiR-G engine. You'll have to upgrade the camshafts, valvetrain, pistons, and pick up a skunk2 manifold for the P72 head. And then again. there's the type-R transmsission which you'll need to get .....ya know...fug it ..get the type-R engine and call it a day. The price difference of $2000 is actually not bad.

If you went B18C/GSR/SiR-G and wanted to match the specs of a Type-R engine:

used set of ITR/CTR cams: $350ish
type-R valvesprings: $150ish at the most
a set of lightened retainers: $100-150ish
used Type-R transmission: $12-1300ish
Skunk2 manifold for P72 head: $380ish
ITR pistons (jdm or us): $275-350ish for the set w/rings
Labor on geting those installed can range from $50-300 i think...
Type-R throttlebody (if you wanted it that is): $400ish

totalish: around $3155 vs. $2000

the look on your face when you've realized you save some dough....priceless.


....and not only that, a type-r engine has a midly ported head, lightened intake valves, a nice exh.manifold (if you went w/ a JDM R engine that is), counter-weight balanced crank, and some other small details...


I'd opt for the type-R engine if I were you.


[Modified by Katman, 12:59 PM 7/25/2002]


[Modified by Katman, 1:01 PM 7/25/2002]

 

ok so i think i got one more question, should i go with a usdm or jdm engine? wait one more, when i get this engine the crx won't be an everyday driver but i will drive it one weekend and just around town, i want to get really high compression with probaby toda head gasket and pistons, whats about the safest compression i could use on the street with high octane gas? i was thinking of getting it to about 12.0:1, can i go higher than that or should i stay lower than that?

 

Stay at 12 on the compression......you don't want to go too high.....I would get cooler plugs too.

USDM/JDM, doesn't matter much.

 

like Spade says, you don't wanna go to high on compression if you plan to daily drive sometimes. About 12.1 is the max you wanna go. What camshafts are you planning to use?

US/JDM ITR engines don't differ too much, only compression ratio's and exh.manifolds are pretty much the only things that differ. Well, except the 98+ ITR engines have a better geared transmission (4.785fd) than pre-97 engines and all US 'R' engines. But that won't matter since you can apply a hydro-tranny to a CRX, (at least for now; Hasport is coming out with a hydrotranny mount for EF chassis soon)

 

I think i'm going for toda c's for camshafts and then toda cam gears and i'll use they're high compression pistons too. I'm trying to stick with everything toda for the internals since they're the best in my opinion. Then i'm going to stick with the ITR i&e manifolds and probably a spoon throttle body.

one other question for katman, did you say you can or can't use the ITR tranny in a crx? If you said you can't is it just b/c hasport doesn't make a mount? can't you just have a custom mount made for that then? OR is it just not possible?

thanks for all the help everyone.

 

B18C5

 

http://www.hasport.com/88-91_OBD_B-series_Swap_Tech.htm

You cannot use a hydro tranny in a CRX......yet.

 

oh ok on the Toda stuff..have fun spending all that $$.

on the hydro (ITR) tranny, I said that HASport WILL be coming out with a custom tranny mount just for the EF civic/crx chassis real soon; dunno when though. They won't have one for the DA chassis though, as far as I know.

 

i've seen a few crx's with ITR and gsr and other hydrotranny's, what do they use? anyone know? Just custom mounts would be my guess?

Can you just bolt on the SiR cable tranny onto the ITR engine then?

 

1) well i guess they did have some custom tranny mount of some sort.

2) yes you can bolt any B-series transmission (hydro or cable) onto any B-series block.

 

I just wanted to clarify a few things.
The itr crankshaft is counter balanced, which actually makes it heavier than the gsr crank. The rods are lighter to make up for the extra weight.
Some gsr's come with oilcoolers, I think 94-95 they had them, and even some 1st gen b16a's had them.
The oil pump is the same as gsr and b20 blocks.

And for the original poster. The itr block is an awsome block, its main intentions were for roadracing. But if you just plan on drag racing it, just get a b18c1 block and build it if you plan on replacing the pistons and valvetrain anyways. Seems like a waste of good parts.

 

What if you want to go forced induction down the road, do you guys still like the Type R better? Ive always heard it preached that the GSR is better for F/I, because of the CR, but what about low boost on an ITR? (If an S2000 can take it, why not this?)

 

what jackson said about replacing the pistons and that was kind of what my original question was supposed to be. I was trying to ask if its worth it to buy the ITR engine even tho if i would be rebuilding it so why not just go with the gsr engine? I would probably be doing a little drag but for the most part it would probably be road so should i not replace the pistons and just do the cams and cam gears if i do go with the ITR? or get a gsr and do cams, gears, pistons, head gasket and all that?

 

if you want to go turbo get the GSR. If you want all motor go with the ITR. I just put a GSR in my car and i wish i got a ITR. I was gonna go turbo but I don't want to go through all that hassle and then if something breaks i won't have a car. I wish i got a Type R motor. I have a jdm GSR which is only 15 hp difference but that makes a difference when you stay all motor.

 

Get a B17A and build it. This way you're still GSR, have a cable tranny, and can build for a N/A motor or boost.

 

If i get the ITR then i'm going all motor, if not that then i'm going to get a b16 and turbo it.

IF i get the ITR i know its just got all bad *** parts already and i was thinking of redoing some of them which i said before, i said i want to do all toda cams, gears, pistons, head gasket and valve springs and then spoon throttle body and somewhere down the line i wouldnt mind the toda injectors but thats a **** load of $$$.

But now people are saying if i want to redo all that in toda its like wasting the ITR engine since its already got good pistons and cams, so is it even worth it to replace all that on the ITR engine???? thats what i'm really trying to figure out so i can decide what i really want to do.

I think i'm probably going to use it mostly for drag now so i'm not sure if this would be the best setup so i'm checking out jun now too since they're geared more towards drag where as toda are more towards road racing.

If i'm going all motor drag is the ITR the best choice to rebuild???

 

I would go with the CRVTEC... My friends CRVTEC is composed of 84.5mm 12.0:1 JE pistons, stock rods, Portflow GSR head with CTR intake cam, sprockets, RC 310cc injectors, P73 ECU, VAFC for fuel, and a B16 tranny with LSD. A couple weeks ago he ran a 12.8@106 in his EK with just no rear and passenger seats. Now i don't think a ITR motor would pull that for around the same price. In my opinion I would do a CRVTEC or just build a GSR.... don't get me wrong i still like the ITR motor just for it's price you could build a way stronger GSR or CRVTEC..... have fun!!

 

i've thought about doing that but i want something that isn't going to have problems up the ***, thats all i've heard about the crvtec. so hows his doing??? he hit 12.8 so whats he running like close to 300 hp then?

 

you cannot deny that once you start pumping more
power out of a motor, it becomes more finicky and
more demading of its internal parts. I want a kick
*** B engine... hopefully 2.0 build with 9K one day soon...
however it cant really be preached that all Frank motors
are created equal. This depends on the driver and the
engine builder, his level of talent and the driver who
either wants to break it or wants to use it and occasionally
rag the hell out of it.

The only security level I have been able to find is to be able
to do the majority of the work myself one day competantly
enough to diagnose problems and fix them when they arise.
Noobs need not apply here... breaking stuff can be very
discouraging! Learn alittle at a time for those of you considering
an all motor build. I can say that with the right time and money
invested you could have a great engine baselining at
185-200 at the wheels dependably if you do your homework out
of any platform be it C5, C1, B20VTEC or LS/VTEC.

By the way... for me,
thats the order that I would consider investing in.