lolv8s

Okay whatsupp HT I'm tensioning my timing belt on my 1991 B18A1 that's going into my 1996 Integra. When I rotate the harmonic balancer (CCW) and bring it back up top it looks TDC. But the timing belt seems to get loose at the top and some times during the rotation. The pic says a lot. Is my timing out of wack or is there something I'm doing wrong?

JRCivic1

From where your cam marks are above in the picture... turn the crankshaft CCW until the left gear mark is 3 teeth higher than horizontal and the right gear mark is 3 teeth lower than the horizontal mark... and hold it there. If the belt is tight light you think it should be... certainly less slack than pictured above, then you are likely good. If there is still slack, loosen the tensioner bolt, gently push the tensioner up toward the exhaust cam gear and re-torque the tensioner bolt. Rotate the crankshaft CCW two full turns and then back to TDC and see if that fixed everything.

Good luck.

lolv8s

ok in the first pic it seemed like it was about three marks. In the 2nd pic it was turned just a little bit more and it was really tight. All around tight. Looser on the back but still pretty tight. I think it's good?

lolv8s

bump, wanna know if I'm good to go.

JRCivic1

Three teeth... don't count the one with the mark on it. From the pic, it LOOKS to be ok... but that is not a guarantee. It is a "feel" kind of thing. Only you are there. If the top and the right side of the belt is tight in your pic above, you are probably in good shape. Don't worry about the left side having some slack... it is ok.

lolv8s

I have a B18A1 Block/ B18A1 head/ GSR oil pump and GSR water pump/ GSR Gates timing belt. I think I'm TDC perfect. But I'm paranoid I could be off 2-3 notches. Would being off 2-3 notches result in a catastrophic failure? Or just not start. 2-3 notches shouldn't be enough to bend valves correct? I think I'm over paranoid because this will be the first start of my build.

NVturbo

timing is off. If you look at the intake cam gear, the "9 o'clock" indention should hover above the "3 o'clock" indention of the exhaust cam gear....both being parallel to one another. Set the crank pulley to TDC, put the timing belt on exhaust cam gear first and then the intake C/G. Adjust the belt tensioner accordingly and tighten afterwards.

lolv8s

when I crank it around ccw the intake c/g does hover above the exhaust c/g up until tdc. And that's how I put it together in the first place. I put the belt on exhaust c/g first. I don't think you can see the cam gear marks well enough in the pics.

JRCivic1

Whoa, whoa, whoa !!! You are just now admitting the use of a GSR water pump and timing belt... WHY do you have those on a non-vtec "B" series application ???

lolv8s

I read that they are better at higher rpms. And the oil pump has increased oil pressure.https://honda-tech.com/forums/acura-integra-6/gsr-oil-pump-vs-ls-oil-pump-1254699/ And I read that you can use them if you use a gsr timing belt. https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/gsr-oil-water-pump-b18a1-2524785/

m4xwellmurd3r

I've got the same set up on my car (LS with GSR pump and belt) the GSR water pump is set so it doesn't caviate at higher RPM and the OBD2 oil pumps are the best pumps to use on B series engines. You do look like you're off a tooth or two.

For the record, I've been running this setup ever since I built my engine 3 years ago without any issues. The reason for it is I have another cylinder head to put on that makes power to around 8k rpm (it's also an LS head)

When you put the belt on did you pin the cams in place to make sure they stayed at TDC? The loose spot, if you put it on the exhaust side (the long section) how much deflection do you have?

NVturbo

FIRST.....MAKE SURE the distributor is set to "0", not advanced or retard.
1. set the crank pulley to TDC
2. align the exhaust cam gear and then intake cam gear
3. tighten tensioner

If you do it in this order, it will work EVERY TIME.

lolv8s

yes I rented one of the cam gear tools that you set in between the gears. And on the long side there is little to no deflection.

JRCivic1

I am with you on the oil pump change... and we won't even go into the fact that NOW all of them are the same part number, so there is no difference between an OBD-2 LS oil pump and an ITR oil pump... but this change does NOT require a different timing belt. The crank gear for the timing belt is the same for all "B" series OBD-2 engines. Changing the water pump from a 19T to a 21T slows down the internal impeller, and thus, increases the RPM range of the water pump before cavitation occurs. I see no reason to do this unless you intend to rev the LS engine to well above 8000 RPM. A moderately built non-vtec engine will not make power anywhere near this RPM typically, so this modification seems frivolous.

The timing belt choice/change seems necessary because of the larger water pump pulley size, and thus I assume, you chose a 126-tooth GSR/ITR belt over the stock 125-tooth LS/CRV timing belt. My concerns here would simply be that you cannot get the right amount of movement in the tensioner assembly for proper belt tension. The real key here is the GSR water pump has a much larger impeller, and thus, will move a greater volume of coolant for increased cooling AND reduced cavitation. The proper way to deal with this particular issue would be to press off a 19T gear from a LS water pump as well as the 21T gear on your GSR water pump and then press the 19T gear on the GSR water pump shaft. The you simply run the 125-tooth LS timing belt. I digress...

So, first... lets do this: PROPER belt installation.

Follow these steps:
1) Torque the tensioner bolt to 40 ft/lbs. Loosen bolt 1/2 turn.
2) Set the crankshaft to TDC. Placing the crank pulley line slightly right of the oil pump arrow will make the removal of slack on the exhaust side of the belt a bit easier... like a mm or 2.
3) Set both camshafts to TDC. Using a narrow phillips screwdriver or hex key to hold the cams in place through the cam cap holes and into the cams helps as long as they are not too small and allow the cams to move back and forth very much. The tool that fits between the cam gears (I have never seen one for an LS... only VTEC engines) works too if you can get the cams to hold still long enough to install it. I say pin the cams and then wiggle your tool into place.
4) Install the timing belt in this order: A- around the crank gear; B- up and over the tensioner; C- around the water pump gear; D- gently removing the slack and up and over the exhaust cam gear while being careful not to turn the crank gear; E- and finally, pulling the needed slack up from the water pump and sliding the timing belt up and over the intake cam gear. Now, visually inspect the timing marks at the crank gear to make sure nothing turned while installing the belt. If the crank gear mark and the oil pump arrow are aligned (VERY CLOSE is fine... like a mm or two one way or the other), then move to the next step. Otherwise, do this step again.
5) Remove your cam pins and cam gear holders etc. and gently spin the crank COUNTER-CLOCKWISE while watching the cam gear markings... rotate until the exhaust cam gear tooth mark has moved three teeth above the imaginary horizontal TDC line (middle of the third tooth below the one with the line in it is even with the top edge of the cylinder head) and the mark on the intake cam gear is the same distance below... and then HOLD the crank pulley in position (do not let off the gentle counter-clockwise pressure necessary to keep the assembly in place). While holding, torque your tensioner pulley bolt to 40 ft/lbs. Spin the crank the remainder of the two full rotations to reach TDC at the cams once more. Now check your belt tension.

NVturbo

There is no need to rent/buy that tool. I've done countless cars including mine without it....and the car cranks every time.

lolv8s

Thank you for going into such detail. I have already tightened down the belt and I placed the belt on in that order. Only thing that worries me now is the GSR water pump gear. I could get an LS water pump gear and replace it, but I have read the non-VTEC LS has been run with the GSR water pump gear and GSR timing belt. It seems my belt has enough tension although, at some points throughout the rotation there is less tension.

lolv8s

The money is returned after you return the tool to O'reilly's so it's basically free. No rental fee. Just have to purchase it and then return it. Of course you would have to spend the gas getting there... I was nervous if I didn't use one.

m4xwellmurd3r

There's definitely enough motion in the tensioner to tighten a GSR belt and water pump on an LS head. I actually OVER tightened mine accidentally and had to re-set my belt using the proper method when I built my engine. If you got an LS water pump or gear you also need the LS belt. Pic is of my LS build using a GSR water pump and belt. It's currently got 45k miles on it without any issue related to the setup. Belt is tensioned perfectly.

I suggest buying a new tensioner spring if you haven't replaced it ever. They do wear out over time and putting a fresh spring on REALLY helps out getting the belt tensioned properly. Previously my old spring was so worn that I HAD to manually tension the belt because the spring was too weak. I thought I had to do the same this time and when I did I would up with the belt having near zero deflection. Once I re-did it and let the brand new spring do all the work it was perfect.

lolv8s

ok I'll replace the spring. Thank you for this. Is there any deflection whatsoever? I have some but not much. And at some points throughout the rotation there is more... But at some points there is none and its super tight.

JRCivic1

This is normal because at certain points in the rotation, valve springs push the camshafts to a point of lower resistance that may cause a bit of slack on top.

lolv8s

ok thank you for the information.

lolv8s

ok I have a 19 tooth water pump. I got an LS belt. I’m having trouble tensioning right though? I saw a guy talking about turning the gears back (CCW) three notches. A guy told me to get a cam gear immobilizer tool. Didn’t need it. This is what I ended up with.


What am I doing wrong?

JRCivic1

Your cam gear pic is too close... we need to see all FOUR marks on the cam gears, not just the pair in the middle. Loosen the tensioner bolt 1/2 turn, and remove the belt. Rotate the crank gear to TDC. Then rotate each camshaft to TDC as well, and once there, place a small phillips screwdriver or hex key into the camshaft thru the hole in the cam cap. This will hold the cams in position while you install the belt. Now begin installing the timing belt. The order is 1) Crank gear, 2) around tensioner, 3) around water pump gear, 4) over the EX cam gear, and finally 5) over the IN cam gear. Gently wiggle the cams to get your screwdriver/hex keys out, then rotate the crank pulley counter-clockwise until the exhaust cam middle mark is three teeth UP from the cylinder head edge and the intake cam is three teeth DOWN from the cylinder head edge. Once there, gently hold tension on the crank gear and torque the tensioner bolt to 40 ft/lbs. Now rotate the crank pulley counter-clockwise until your timing marks line up at the head or crank (hopefully both). If you are not lined up... repeat.

lolv8s

Ok this is where I’m at. Was I supposed to rotate the cams any before putting the belt on? Because I’m getting the same results everything comes back to TDC not three teeth up or down. So far that’s what results I’m getting rotating the crank counter clockwise with everything TDC. I’ve tried this three times and I keep getting the same thing. I’m sure I look like a fool but this is my first time trying this. Also my crank gear has a mark on it that lines up with a mark on the oil pump. I pulled the spark plug and stuck an extension in cylinder #1 to verify that it’s the highest it goes when the marks line up. And it lines up perfect when the cylinder #1 is the highest. Anyways this is what I get with the exhaust cam 3 teeth up from the head. I’m having trouble understanding exactly. But thanks for going into such detail this whole thread.

1999 Civic Si

I attached some pdfs to my post, I followed these and it took me two tries to get it right and it was the first time I have ever done a timing belt. After installing the belt per the factory service manual, I spun the engine over by hand 6 times back to TDC and then loosened the tensioner bolt and rotated the engine three teeth on the cam gear(s) CCW and then tighten the tensioner bolt down and turned it over 6 times by hand back to TDC and it was good to go.

JRCivic1's description is pretty much spot on with the factory service manual.