I've come to check out these forums on recommendation from other Honda enthusiasts.

Sorry to begin with a question but it's quite important and as yet I am having trouble deciding whether a VTEC Honda is really for me.

Essentially the Honda I am considering will have a B16A engine (Civic VTi over here).

What I am wondering is simple in theory, but probably not so in practice.

The B16A comes with 160bhp as standard. Through a combination of JDM, Type-R and other aftermarket parts what is the limit of NA tuning and at what price?

Sorry to be so vague, but it's the ballpark figure ($ and bhp) I am after.

Cheers

Tim


P.s I shall now go and wander the tech forum for previous info, sorry if I have repeated a common thread.

 

What are your plans are for the car, how do you plan to drive it and where? I think you have the question a bit backwards, you should ask yourself "how much do I want to spend?" and there's were your limit is.

 

230++ whp on the street with motec engine management on pump gas, would cost about 5-8k depending on who does the work, yourself or an outside source and how your acquire the parts- stealing, discount, or reg retail.

 

Cheers mate, that's the numbers I was after.

But let me just say I am not an ignorant person when it comes to engines and I realise that the VTEC is a trick bit of kit hence why it's pretty hard to get big power from it for sensible money.

In answer to the first reply, I don't believe I am doing things backwards.

I want a project and therefore need to know what the limits are, both in terms of mechanics and financial.

The car I have just sold was 156bhp standard. Spend $3500 on it with a set of throttle bodies and the like and you get a 220bhp, 150mph motor with a sub 7 second 0-60 and 1/4 mile around 14 seconds, probably less.

My next car has to be similarly rewarding to upgrade and not cost the earth doing it.

Hence why I am considering a blower.

Thanks for your replies.

Tim

 

One thing to keep in mind is the severe lack of torque that you have to become used to when you use the B16. My humble opinion is that you wont be satisfied power wise without a turbo. But anyways...

I have seen time and time again many people try to take on all motor low displacement scanerios, and it can work, it just won't make power that will plant the passenger in the seat yelling for you to slow down.

Assuming that you stay with the B16 bottom end intact without replacing any of the bottom end parts, and this is assuming that you already have good leakdown results and compression numbers. From there, a Mugen higher compression head gasket is a good cost effective mod. Then from there, an underdrive pulley is a good mod for an all motor car, although I will not buy them for reasons that I have discussed in other threads tima and time before, they are a good cost effective mod for an all motor car. Moving on in to the world of the top end of the motor, invest in good head porting and keep the stock sized valves with a good five angle valve seat and mild porting job, the porting should be more attentive to airflow and mixture distribution than overall flow quanity, intake velocity is something that cannot be lost when using atmospheric pressure for your only power. Fromt here, get some cams, Toda, Jun, Skunk, whatever you use, dosen't matter, do your own research and speak with your head porter and find out what cam they want the head to be ported in respect to, you will make more power this way, porting the head per application, with all the other mods on the top end done, a cylinder head can actually be ported to make the most generous and broad power gains at the stock cam timing.

The Skunk2 intake manifold would be a good decision.

You need to get some twenty-two inch chrome rims will drop about half a second in the quarter mile, just kidding, seeing who is still paying attention.

A good path for you to explore is the CRVTEC, using the B20 bottom end is a good combo to give you the torque you will want. Make sure to rebuild the bottom end when you get one though, don't just slap it together. And get the bottom end before the head work, cause it will change the characteristics of the head work, and have the combustion chamber opened up to match the bore of the cylinders. Some may tell you that this lowers compression some, ohh well, do it anyway, you will make more horsepower with compression and a better quality of a burn. Use the new pistons that you just bought to raise compression. Or get flat backed valves, or stick with the Mugen head gasket.

I could type forever on this, but I will stop now.

 

Run it efficent, run it light.

http://lyonel.8m.com

 

there has to be a point where the $$$'s start becoming not worth the HP

 

Or vice versa.

A turbo can give you 30bhp for £500 ($750?).

See where I am going?


P.S Riceboy, thanks for the gen mate, you know your $hit. The more I learn, the more I realise the limits, cheers mate!


[Modified by Tim_P, 8:13 PM 7/30/2002]

 

(editied for clarity's sake)

dont be one of those people that think FI is quick,
easy and cheap. You will learn a slow, hard and
expensive lesson in making it work



[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 8:36 PM 7/30/2002]

 

boost is like a gun, its your fault and responsibility if it goes bang.

boosting has many rewards though, and with only 1.6 liters a basic T3/To4E goes a long way in the realm of torque, at just eight or nine psi. Not too much for the engines internals as far as prressure or heat increase. But as far as fueling goes, your reaching the limit. Buy injectors and an AEM standalone, and 11-12 psi on stock componets is not unreachable and unreliable either. Tuning goes a long way in the way of integrity. But so does engine geometry. Running the B16, the rod ratio is great for high revs, but at the same time, RPM is not always a beautiful thing, granted, blowing apart piston rings with boost isnt great, but those have to have time take its toll on them as well. Small amounts of boost over time wears the rings and seals in the motor. But high RPM, lets say...9500 RPM, thats about a good figure, cause the all motor race cars are running more and thats about the avearge redline for an all motor street car with a high rod ratio. Imagine a valve letting loose at that RPM. Piston speed at 8500 RPM on a B18A/B is .2 meters per second faster than the B16A at 9500 RPM . A 2.8 m/s difference when both engines are at 8500 RPM. That is a large increase in force, espicially considering the increased pace that is involved. The bottom line is RPM has the capability to do great amounts of structural damage if one part fails at high RPM. Keep in mind that it takes just seconds for an entire cooling system to empty when the motor is held at 8000 RPM. More RPM equates to more potential energy ("power") as it does on a turbo car as well. The only thing is, the differences in combustion rates and overall combustion characteristics between the two engines differ so greatly that the compromise leans heavier on the side of boost, making more power, sooner. Sacrifice a few thousand RPM's for that? I will.

Given that nothing goes wrong causing structural damage to the normally aspirated motor, I do truely believe it will last longer than the turbo counterpart, and do so with less diffuculty.

Its been said that an engine is the best assimbly of compromises, and this is a compromise.


EDIT-to give you an idea of how RPM equates to damage, I'll try to get up to the local Honda dealer and take a pic of an S2K head that some chick destroyed going from fifth to fifth to fourth when trying to shift into sixth, the tech I know that did the said it had to have hit at least 14K to do the damage she did, the valve head was cracked off the valve stem, the stem was shoved back up through a destroyed guide and the valve head was stuck sideways in the port. And piston? LOL, What piston?


[Modified by riceboy, 6:12 AM 7/31/2002]

 

Think this was a CRX, changing down from 3rd to second at 8000rpm.

Ouch.

 

Just wondering.

Has anyone read the info at this link?

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/a...2_tech02.shtml

It's kinda what got me thinking B16A in the first place, sounds so easy and erm.. cheap!

Hmm.. have a look if you got 10 minutes.