i wanna see pics of some for honda cars ..

i'll be getting a rear sway for my prelude soon, but i can't afford a neuspeed rear @ 300$ ( adjust )
so i wanna get a ST one and make it adjustable..

is there any kits that can be bought for that ?

wass the general design for adjustable links ???
what is the phisics employed with it..

what i'm planning mostly is to do myself custom endlinks..is it feasable ?
anyone have experiences with that ?

tanx guys

 

I get a fair amount of adjustability from my ST bars by changing the tension on the endlink bushings...

 

mmm
please elaborate more on that!!

i need more details...
how could u adjust the stiff of the bar with the bushing of the endlinks?

thansks

 

Sorry 'bout that. ;-)

It's not specifically an adjustment to the stiffness of the bar (of course), but the action of the bar on the suspension. The ends of the sway bar, and the control arm, are sandwiched between poly bushings with tension provided by a locknut. "Loosening" the lock nut causes more play in the bushings so more suspension movement is required before the bar exerts pressure. It's not a BIG point of adjustability, but it makes a difference. You don't want to loosen (or tighten) the bushings too much though...

 

tanx

that's better than nothing nah? ?;p
eheh

neway i'll install it..and see how stiff it is..
if i don't get what i wanted i think i'll try and do some hole in it or maybe an extension if it's not stiff enough..
cause it's nice to be able to adjust that on the fly when u're at the track

any more inputs on how to make custom adjustable end link/sway bar ?? ;p

tanx again!

 

As far as the sway bar itself goes, I'd say fabricating something that would extend the bar would be TOUGH. Other than drilling holes for different endlink locations, I dunno what else you could do. Drilling holes may have an effect on the warranty, but you're going to the track anyway right? ;-) Some bars use exactly this method for adjustability.

 

eheh
ok i'll go with holes!

warranty ?? what warranty ? ahhaah i don't really care of the warranty newya on a metal bar that's worth 125$
eeh

yeah i wouldn't care too muhc about adjusting it for street man
eheh

mmm
is there an endlink that comes with the bar ?
or we use the honda one ?

do u think that with drilling more holes..i could still use the endlink and it would work ?
i really didn't check how the enlink worked really on my car..
mmm wonder if i would need a longer endlink
eheh

i know that the neuspeed one is adjustable with different holes..but it seems to be using another style of endlink ..
neway let me know wht do u think

and mmm..how much u paid for the bar ?

thanks very mucho fellow luder

 

>>thanks very mucho fellow luder <<

I'm a vic-er.

>>do u think that with drilling more holes..i could still use the endlink and it would work ?<<

Depends on how long your endlinks are. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to use the existing endlinks unless they have some extra length. Probably have to go with longer ones depending on where you drill the holes. I dunno what the endlinks look like on the adj. Nuespeed bar, but I'm guessing they have something like a fairly long threaded section to allow more (or less) reach.

>>neway let me know wht do u think<<

Well, you asked... ;-)

Here's my opinion on the adjustable sway bar thing. For the "big dogs", they need that point of adjustability because they're doing a lot of fine tuning and testing, but being the un-sponsored, sometimes sorta serious autocrosser that I am, I just don't have the seat time or the $$$ to tune my suspension to that extent. Lots of folks install sway bars to reduce body roll or induce oversteer (for FWD's), but IMO, well built suspensions utilize sway bars more for stabilization. Good spring rates and adjustable struts can all but eliminate body roll, as well as give all the oversteer you want, but sway bars really shine in the transitions (like slaloms...) where the suspension can begin to "oscillate". Sway bars dampen this effect and keep the car more stable.

Soooo, my adjustable struts (illuminas) and GC coilover sleeves with 300lb F and 425lb R rates take out most of my body roll, and give me the oversteer that I need. And sway bars keep my car stable in the transitions. Until now, I haven't felt the need to play with the sway bars much at all. I'm perfectly happy with them. BTW, I bought the set of Suspension Techniques sway bars for $300. While the spring rates are a bit soft, it's all about compromise and the fact that I don't want to make my car into a trailor queen. Given the fact that I've compromised in other areas of my suspension, an adjustable sway bar really won't do me much service. I've played with the bushings, and I could feel a difference. However, whether it made me faster or slower, I'm not sure...yet. But I can't justify the extra $$$ to install adjustable sway bars on my car at this point.

After all that gabbing, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't need adjustable sway bars, and a lot of other folks don't either. Your car might be built to the point where it could definitely benefit from them though.

 

eheh
tanx again..

that's what i though..maybe i'll use the stock endlinks and use a screw type on them
neway i'll see..

nah my car is bone stock suspension for this year

i wanna try to LEARN how to drive first..then i'll tune the car to what i need

what kind of oversteer u are getting with ur settings ?
is the car realllly loose on the back or it only rotates some more ?

and why do u want oversteer ??
( just to see other points of view )
eheh

tanx man

 

It's sort of tough to quantify, but if you were driving my car down the street under neutral throttle, and you suddenly yanked the steering wheel hard to the side, you'd come real close to looping it. ;-)

If my car had been set up this way when I first started autocrossing, I'd have said it has a hell-uv-a-lot of oversteer. But, as I gain experience, I like more and more oversteer so now it feels pretty normal. That's sort of a usual trend for drivers I think. Until the last couple of seasons, I really wouldn't have been able to make use of the oversteer. I had to figure out some other techniques first (like left foot braking). If you're used to a bone stock suspension, just the addition of a rear sway bar will give you all the oversteer you want for awhile. Plus, gotta remember that a bunch of oversteer can get you in big trouble on track days, while all I have to worry about at the autocross is a few cones.

A lot of well-set-up Civics out there have something close to a 400F/600R spring rate setup, and I kept the 2f/3r ratio but with lower rates so the car would be more streetable.

I want oversteer because in turns it helps me get the car pointed the direction I want to go in more quickly so I can get back on the gas earlier. In some cases, using left-foot braking (another VERY important driving technique), I can get the car rotated and take fairly tight turns without ever lifting at all.

 

ahha
left foot braking ?
wass that ?
u brake while still maintaining the gaz ?
how does that helps ?
eheh

mmm
i want more oversteer or less understeer ..but i still ain't sure about if lots of oversteer i faster
eheh

 

Left-foot braking has a ton of benefit, particularly in FWD's. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it's impossible to be super competitive without using the technique. For one thing, it allows quicker transitions from gas to brake, and brake to gas. No matter how fast someone can move that right foot, they won't beat somebody else who has both feet on the pedals. It's so fast that I can alternate between gas and brakes in tight slaloms where it would be impossible to do so with one foot.

Also, the car is much more stable. I apply the brakes *while* I'm letting off the gas. So, the car goes from throttle to brake without any "neutral" time. This keeps the car much more settled, and causes the suspension to load more smoothly (smoothly? is that a word?).

For turbo guy's it's really a good thing because they can keep the turbo spooled more easily, but it also helps NA cars by keeping the revs higher as well.

And, by stomping the brakes and the gas at the same time, I can induce even more oversteer for really tight turns like 180 degree hairpins. At the beginning of a tight turn I punch the brakes, but leave my right foot on the gas, this causes the back wheels to break traction (but not the fronts) momentarily, which causes the back end to come around some. I control the amount with the amount of brake I apply. The car is pointed through the turn very quickly, and I'm back on full throttle much earlier than if I had tried to "drive" through the turn. There's a real fine line there though. Driving through the turn is certainly faster than doing some big Rockford Files type of slide.

All this has to be balanced by the fact that driving smooth is the first big lesson to learn. Some people say "drive slow to go fast". While that's very true for everyone starting out, a good description for what goes on in a well driven car is "controlled chaos". ;-) Driving tight, smooth lines, and still flogging the sh*t out of a car is a fine art that very few people have ever perfected.

BTW, you can practice this while you're driving around town or whenever. It's even better if you're driving mom's automatic... The best way to do it though, is to JUST DO IT. Position that left foot over the brake pedal after you start your run. It's easier than it sounds.

 

i really have to find a place near where i cna practice such things wiht my car..

there is almost no safeplace to go and practice tight manoeuvers ..


i still can't see why u would go faster by loosing out the tail for few moments and push it after ...

cause u are loosing all grip in the back for few seocnds and that means that the front has to sustain everything nah?

i can understand that some limited oversteer will induce rotation faster in the car..but isn't have to be done with the less loose of rear grip possible ?

should have a trhead talking about what is the fastest eay though a curve in relation to oversteer/neutral/understeer position and the lenght of the cruve itself..

 

There's a balance that has to be achieved. It certainly is possible to slide too much. In fact, that's a pretty common mistake known as "overdriving".

Sometime, if you get a chance, ask one of the really "fast guys" if you can ride along for a run. It's a real eye opener, and an eye popper sometimes. ;-) Seems like driving skill dictates the style that works best for people. I'm leaving a lot out but... For beginners, it's all about looking ahead, and remembering the course. For good drivers, it's the right line, staying tight on the turns and being smooth. For the "hot shoes" though, it's a little different. They sort of "look" like everybody else, but the interesting part is they spend a lot of time beyond the "limits", so they're actually sliding a decent bit. The thing is, they don't look like they're sliding unless you watch closely. It's awesome to see. The ability to do this is about 90% driver skill, and 10% car setup. Not to put down car setup, but the driver makes the car in this type of racing. $$$=speed doesn't always apply, and sometimes your car doesn't require that you throw money at it. Instead it requires tuning, which is a lot more difficult than spending money. ;-)

The best way to get practice is hook up with your local SCCA region (or the equivalent for Canada) and head out to a few autocrosses. Not only will you get great practice, but it will be in a safe environment, with excellent course design, and a lot of experienced racers around to help you out. Out of all the competitive sports I've ever been involved with, autocrossers are definitely the friendliest.

>>should have a trhead talking about what is the fastest eay though a curve in relation to oversteer/neutral/understeer position and the lenght of the cruve itself..<<

That would be a hell of a thread and I wouldn't even know where to start. It can get pretty subjective too. What works for you may not work for me, etc. There's a whole section of books devoted to that subject alone. BTW, something that surprises a lot of people is that suspension development and tuning is a LOT more complex than engine tuning, in the end. At the Nationals in Topeka it seems like half the competitors are engineers of some sort. It ain't fair...