i own a 2000 civic si. yesterday i brought my car in to have new wheels and tires put on (205/50/15 on rota slipstreams 15x6.5 +40 at stock ride height).

they installed them even though i didn't have centric rings, and sent me on my way (wasn't real happy about that). also, the alignment specs they were going by was for a 04-05 civic si. i asked the guy at the counter about that and he said it's all the same. obviously my wheels aren't currently centered on the hubs because i'm missing the rings, so the car vibrates and bounces like crazy. but the steering wheel is turned a quarter turn to the left in order to go straight, and it pulls really hard to the left when i let go.

was the guy blowing smoke up my *** when he said the alignment specs for all civics (96-05) are the same? they said my rear toe adjusters were seized and they couldn't do anything for me, and that i need to have them replaced.

i'm going to grab some rings in a bit and throw them on, hopefully someone can help me soon before i decide to go to a different wheel shop and have the alignment done again. thanks!

 

Should file a complaint with the police.

 

No issues there. They aren't really needed, and are more of a helper item for putting the wheels on than anything else.

Some info in here on centering rings, if you'd like:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/another-wheel-spacer-question-5mm-hub-wheel-centric-spacers-2811850/

I have been running for 4 years now on 5Zigen and Rota wheels on my DC2 without centering rings, daily driver / auto-x / HPDE use, and it has never been an issue.

04-05 Civic = strut based suspension
00 Si = double wishbone

The specs won't be the same. Toe, might be similar (or even identical) but the rest of the specs should differ.

However, only toe is adjustable stock, so it might have been pseudo-correct to say they are the same.

Here is the correct specs for a 96-00 Civic:
front left/right:
range
camber: -1.5° --> 0.5°
caster: 0.2° --> 2.2°
toe: -0.08° --> 0.08°
sai: n/a
turning angle diff.: -7.50° --> -3.50°

front:
range
cross camber: n/a
cross caster: n/a
total toe: -0.16° --> 0.16°

rear left/right:
range
camber: -2.0° --> 0.0°
toe: 0.04° --> 0.16°

rear:
range
total toe: 0.08° --> 0.32°
thrust angle: n/a

If you have the correct lug nuts on the car and they are tight, then the wheels are centered. Vibration can be wheel balance, alignment, suspension bushings, or many other causes, but bounce is purely shocks (if the car is actually bouncing, many people seem to misuse that term).

Steering wheel not centered = screwed up alignment

Take it back, make them do it right. They should have centered the wheel first, then adjusted the tie rods to point the wheels straight.

Probably, but not necessarily if he was only discussing toe.

Um, the rear toe is adjusted with a bolt and nut in a slot on the body. If that is actually seized, there is no easy fix, as teh body will need to be cut open to remove the captured nut.

Unless you have an aftermarket "toe kit" in the rear. In which case, you should remove that and put the stock toe links back on, as they can cause all kinds of odd handling issues (uneven toe curves left/right, bumpsteer, etc...).

Sounds like you need to get an alignment done, regardless of where you decide to take it. Post up the sheet they should have given you showing the before / after specs.

 

These specs differ from my (EDM) books (car supplied manual and workshop manual) my EDM specs in bold EK 3/4d 2d:

front:
camber: -1.5° --> 0.5°
0° [-1°,+1°] [-0.45°, +0.45°]

caster: 0.2° --> 2.2°
1°40' [0°40', 2°40']

toe: -0.08° --> 0.08°
-5' [-15', +5'] (minutes); -0.08° [-0.22°, +0.08] (decimal degrees) [-20', +10'] [-0.30°, +0.15°]

rear
camber: -2.0° --> 0.0°
-1° [-2°, 0°] [-1.45°, -0.55°]

toe: 0.04° --> 0.16°
-10' [-20', +5'] (minutes); -0.15 [-0.30, +0.08] (decimal degrees)


Did you specify toe and caster in decimal degrees or degree-minutes?

Your front toe specs appear rather narrow, caster rather low and rear toe only and too positive.

 

Why is this so?

 

What I posed should be in decimal degrees, not degree-minutes.

However, trust what a service manual specifies over what I posted. I can not guarantee the accuracy of what I copy/pasted...

In regards to front toe, that is the same range I have in the service manual for my DC2. Same for rear toe. Similar suspension designs between these cars, but not identical.

I can't speak on caster for the this generation of Civic, but I do know for certain that the EG/DC runs +1.1* caster stock, which is consistent with the 0.2 - 2.2 spec that I posted for the 96-00 Civic.

Again, if anyone has a factory service manual specific to this car, trust that over what I posted.

Because aftermarket toe kits for the rear allow the toe link/arm (whatever the correct name is) to change length.

If the length on one side is adjusted different than the other, then the left/right toe curves will not be equal, which will cause inconsistent left/right handling issues.

Changing the length to something different than stock, changes the toe curve. Are you positive that you're making it better, and not adding more "bumpsteer" to the rear?

The factory rear toe adjustment leaves the arm length static, and slides the body mounting point along a slot. This type of adjustment minimizes the potential detrimental issues compared to adjustable length arms.

 

Allright, good to know 'bout those rear toe arms

 

some more info that may help, especially with the sheet. a week prior i did some work on the front passenger side: new wheel studs, new cheap lug nuts just for those 4 studs, new wheel bearings, new lower ball joint, new tie rod end.

today i brought the sheet and my car to another shop near by and had a mechanic look it over for me real quick. the sheet shows some pretty bad caster problems and he told me you can't adjust caster on these cars. and the only thing that would cause it to go out of whack like that is if something's bent, or that there's a problem with the ball joints. he basically told me that bringing the car into them is going to yield pretty much the same results until i solve that caster problem. also, the cheap lug nuts were supposed to be replaced when the other shop did the wheels, but they didn't do it. instead they forced the huge lug nuts onto the wheel and bored out the holes that sit on the studs.

sheet:


i ended up picking up a set earlier today (before i read this post). i'll probably end up just using them now that i have them.


yeah i ended up realizing that after i bought the spacers when i was looking at different lug nuts. however, one set of lug nuts were not correct, i used them just as a temp to get the wheel back on the car after the new studs were in. being that they are 21mm around (probably for SUVs) they actually bored out the holes on one of the wheels and didn't seat correctly. the tire shop said they would replace those for me when they mounted the wheel, but never actually did. i didn't care about putting them on the old wheels because they were just steelies.

by bounce i meant that it feels like the rear wheels are out of round, like driving on ovals.

good to know, i'll mention that when i go back.

no toe kits here! the mechanic i talked to today said i should be able to jack it up and just work at it with a breaker bar and a cheater pipe. he said i may end up only having to replace the bushing.

 

Last time I worked a frozen "toe kit" with a cheater bar, the nut inside snapped loose. Guess how impossible it is to get at that nut w/o major cutting. I've also seen the bolt rusted to the inside of the bushing, and that inner tube just breaks away from the rubber. You may want to PB Blast it for a few days, or take it to someone with some real torch skills.

As for lug nuts & hub centricity... If you use the wrong lugs, spherical/ball with tappered rims, you can have issues. Combine that with oversized holes and no centric ring, they can come loose or let the wheel move, creating some major movement. Loosen a car's lugs 2 turns and pull onto the freeway. You'll swear the car is falling apart, not that the rims are loose.

I'd recommend tossing the steelies back on, torque the lugs to the proper amount, and see what problems persist. Anything that does persist was most likely caused by that shop.

 

Except right caster and rear toe your specs are all fine not to say perfect.

Right caster is way off but strangely enough on the plus side, so the wheel has moved to the front of the car, so you haven't hit anything. You have been working on that side so you'd check your work.

 

do you have any suggestions on what i should be looking for when i take it all apart? town fair said the frame was straight, but i'm not sure i can trust their judgment now.

i've hit a few big pot holes too, but i'm not sure that's enough to bend anything, is it?

 

Caster issues are caused by:
bent LCA (or destroyed compliance bushing)
shifted subframe
bent UCA (rather unlikely)
ingalls style sliding UCA pivot "camber kit"

 

ill check the lca and bushing and compare the other side. the uca and joint are original with 10 years of wear and tear on them. would jacking up the car via the cross member near the front bumper hurt the sub frame at all? the fist time i ever did that was for the bj replacement so that the jacking points behind the wheels would be free to set up jack stands.

 

Nope.

The subframe I am talking about is what the rear bushing of the front LCA (compliance bushing) bolts to.

If the subframe has been shifted, then the LCA is pushed forward/back, changing the caster.

The same applies if that bushing is shot. It allows the LCA to move forward/back, changing the caster.

 

you guys have been a huge help, thanks so much. also thanks for being patient with me. this is all new territory to me.

after a little searching i came across this subframe swap for an ek (http://repo.jackmoves.com/v/erik/album106/album139/). i was searching through the pictures to try and make sense of where and how the subframe could shift, but came up empty handed. any insight to that would be greatly appreciated.

i stopped off at honda to grab another lower ball joint to replace the moog joint that's on the car now. i'll be replacing that regardless because it'll fit properly, unlike the moog joint. when i have the wheel off the car tomorrow i'll check and see how well the upper and lower joints line up as well as the condition of the compliance bushing and go from there.

now, i did mention that the upper control arm is original. i know for sure that the ball joint is bad. should i cough up the money and get a new upper arm from honda, or should i just attempt to replace the ball joint and bushings with some aftermarket replacements? the thing about that moog lower ball joint is the stud is way too long for the castle nut it came with. so when i tighten it down the hole for the cotter pin is so far below it that a cotter pin would serve no purpose. so i'm a little skeptical about a non-honda ball joint. another option is buy a set of used skunk 2 adjustable upper control arms for less than the price of one new arm from honda. which path should i follow?

 

Take a guess, really.

A subframe that's bent forward, on one side? Did you like drive crazylike backwards and hit some huge curbthing with your right front wheel only, probably not. The framething is fine.

Why do you consider replacing the upper arm? You fear it could be metal fatigue or something? No.

You say you have non-Honda things mounted that don't fit right. Surprised your specs are out of it?

Replace the ball joint things with new Honda ones. Check the work you did before on the passenger side (said that allready).

Do all those things and you'll very likely be fine.

 

i only brought up the upper arm because the ball joint is shot. i figured while everything is apart i might as well take care of that issue. honda doesn't sell upper ball joints, they only sell the entire upper arm. so either i press in a non honda ball joint, and likely run into the same problem i have now, or replace the entire arm. unless there's a better alternative.

 

Hmm, mixed up the boot part with the ball joint proper

If it's shot, get a new Honda one or a good one used.

You also replaced the lower one. Check it (third time).

 

ok, it took me awhile to get around to try and figure this caster problem out. i was busy replacing some missing oil pan bolts and fixing an exhaust leak and degreasing the engine.

i have both front wheels and calipers off and tried to straighten the wheel up as much as possible. i measured on both sides from the center of the hub to the two screws that hold the lip to the bumper on the inside.



there was only a difference of about 1/16 of an inch between the passenger side and the driver side. would that equate to the 2.5 degrees difference in caster? i'm not exactly sure how to go about measuring to deduct what the problem may or may not be. i'll put the wheel back on to check for wobbling which i guess would indicate a problem with the ball joints.

when a tire shop does and alignment, how exactly do they go about measuring caster? i was thinking earlier that if it's done with the wheel mounted then they could have gotten their readings wrong simply do to the fact that the wheel may not have been centered on the hub. they used the wrong lug nuts to mount the wheel, and actually ruined my wheel. any thoughts on that?

edit: even with the old wheels back on the car it still pulls to the left (more like drifts to the left), and the steering wheel is still slightly turned to the left when driving straight. i'm not sure if that rules out the whole wheel not being centered on the hub issue.

 

Bumpers tend to 'set' due to small 'collisions', and such. You should measure to the other side (I did/do and it works). Also you may want to measure with the wheels on and on the ground.

Very well possible.

Could be alignment, could be suspension parts, ...