I've been going through alot of the topics asking basic questions about "do I or do I not" need a camber kit and what types of kits to get and also seeing a wide variety of answers.
Just thought I'd post up some common facts.
First, I deal with a variety of lowered cars on a daily basis with the majority of them being Hondas. I manage a performance/wheel and tire shop (used to be the "Import Specialist" there). But anyway...
I see alot of people saying I lowered my car "Do I need an alignment". The answer to that question will always be yes. If you lowered your car you have changed your specs from factory which means you will need to align it to correct the problem you may have just caused, nomatter how much it has been lowered, an alignment is needed.
Here are some specs I pulled today from one of our alignment machines (Hunter C111)
96 Civic EX
LF & RF camber has 1.0 of toleration within specs, which is 0. Which means you can lower your car 1" and still be in range of factory specs.
LR & rr come set -1.0 degree caster and have another 1.0 of toleration.

As most people know, a Honda does not come with camber and caster adjustments, so when you lower your car and take it somewhere to get it aligned all they can possibly do correctly is set the toe. (Front toe OE is at .04, rear is .08). A camber kit is definately "needed" to properly align a Honda lowered more than 1.25". That is not saying that if you lower your car 1.5" your tires will wear prematurely, it is just saying that your car is not in specs of OE.

As far as camber correction kits go I would definatley say the best on the market is Specialty Products. I use them on a daily basis and have never had a problem with them. The front adjustable ball joint is top notch along with the rear kit. And if you have a civic that is slammed on a 18" wheel/tire and you correct the camber it will scrub in the rear. SP also has rear EZ arms that fix that. Skunks are OK also, I personally don't like how the front ball joint slides back and forth and is held in place by for small allen screws. But the product looks good.

I also have a list of all the Honda part #'s and specs from specialty. I feel like I'm rambling and leaving alot out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> A camber kit is definately "needed" to properly align a Honda lowered more than 1.25". That is not saying that if you lower your car 1.5" your tires will wear prematurely, it is just saying that your car is not in specs of OE.
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Well, this seems to be the crux of the issue for most people, and I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "definately 'needed.'" Beyond 1.25" do you need a camber kit to get your camber back to Honda spec range? Yes. Do you need to get your camber back to Honda spec range? No. Since most of us consider the addition of negative camber a bonus and not a drawback of lowering a Honda, I either don't understand your wording or we disagree on this point. And you can certainly set your toe properly without a camber kit. Otherwise, good info This thread has the potential to end all of these unnecessary and duplicated camber questions.

Can you generate data beyond 1"? I would really like to see the camber specs at various ride heights for my own use (given that I set my front camber completely by ride height).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well, this seems to be the crux of the issue for most people, and I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "definately 'needed.'" Beyond 1.25" do you need a camber kit to get your camber back to Honda spec range? Yes. Do you need to get your camber back to Honda spec range? No. Since most of us consider the addition of negative camber a bonus and not a drawback of lowering a Honda, I either don't understand your wording or we disagree on this point. And you can certainly set your toe properly without a camber kit. Otherwise, good info This thread has the potential to end all of these unnecessary and duplicated camber questions.

Can you generate data beyond 1"? I would really like to see the camber specs at various ride heights for my own use (given that I set my front camber completely by ride height).</TD></TR></TABLE>

What I meant by definately needed at &gt;1.25 is that if your car is lower than that and you take it in for an alignment, all they will do is set the toe. Your car is now out of the O.E specified range. Which will in turn usually lead to tire wear issues. Now your right, your car doesn't have to be in OE range if you don't want it to. If you want a little negative camber thats fine. Just don't expect an alignment to solve any future problems other than tow in or out. Without a camber kit on a car lowered over 1.25, an alignment printout is meerly a diagnosis of a camber issue, it won't solve a tire problem. Alot like going to the doctor and he gives you a perscription, it is then up to you to decide if you want to get it filled or not.

I can check my machine to see if I can dial in specs and it give me a readout. Generally 1"=1 degree.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">an alignment printout is meerly a diagnosis of a camber issue, it won't solve a tire problem. </TD></TR></TABLE>

But if you set the toe properly, you shouldnt have a tire problem.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

But if you set the toe properly, you shouldnt have a tire problem.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats not true. When you set the toe in and toe out, you are only making sure that the front wheels and back wheels are pointing at the same angle towards the front of the car pretty much. It has nothing to do with the camber and caster settings which is what will have the biggest affect on your tire wear. If your toe is off badly you will get very squirly steering.

Here is my suspension set up off my old (1st) Civic (some of these parts are OG Old school )
Front: Suspension Tech. Drop forks, KYB AGX struts, H&R OE sports, Spec. Products ball joints
Rear: Suspension Tech Pro arms, KYB GR2 struts, H&R OE sports

The last parts I put on were the Suspension Tech. parts (everything else had already been installed and set) and I drove overnight without aligning it, my toe was WAY out. I drove it overnight and I could barely ****** the wheel and my car felt like it was in 2 seperate pieces. The rear end was way out of whack compared to the front. Pretty scarey, I thought all my wheels were loose. Anyway, pulled it in the next day, realigned it (set the toe) and everything was fine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It has nothing to do with the camber and caster settings which is what will have the biggest affect on your tire wear</TD></TR></TABLE>

I 100% disagree with this statement.

 

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I 100% disagree with this statement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with RJ.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I 100% disagree with this statement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How, if you don't mind me asking? Setting camber will affect the toe, but setting the toe only will not affect your camber. If you only set the toe on a vehicle you are not making any camber/caster adjustments. If you are setting your camber/caster you will need to set the toe. Which is why you can set the toe on a Honda without adjusting the camber. Thats why camber kits are needed, not toe kits.

 

I know how a honda suspension works and what can/cannot be adjusted. Having more camber wont cause excessive tire wear, and in many cases will improve tire wear. However, if your toe is off (due to lowering... gain camber... changes toe) that will cause the tire to wear very quickly on the inside. All that really needs to be adjusted is the toe and the camber can stay as-is.

 

I totally agree with RJ. The toe is what really cause excessive tire wear. Think about it, if the toe is off by a degree, that would cause more tire wear than a degree of negative camber.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It has nothing to do with the camber and caster settings which is what will have the biggest affect on your tire wear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This statment would be true IF you only drove in a straight line (or on the highway all the time). However, most of us like to turn, and a lot of us like to turn HARD. If your camber was set to zero, your tires would wear more on the outside edges. When you add negative camber, your tires are more inclined to wear evenly over time if you like spirited driving.

Toe, however, will destroy your tires very quickly if it is out of spec, as well as making your car very difficult to predict...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know how a honda suspension works and what can/cannot be adjusted. Having more camber wont cause excessive tire wear, and in many cases will improve tire wear. However, if your toe is off (due to lowering... gain camber... changes toe) that will cause the tire to wear very quickly on the inside. All that really needs to be adjusted is the toe and the camber can stay as-is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you saying that having negative (as your "more") cmaber will not cause your tire to wear? If so then that is not at all true. Setting the toe only makes your wheels parallel to each other, front and rear at the same frontward traveling angle.

Toe Setting

When setting up the car, it’s often not desirable to have the front wheels exactly parallel to each other. Some situations call for toe-out while others call for toe-in, thus the term “toe setting.”
I just pulled that off of a site (http://www.stockcarracing.com/tipstricks/31519/ )

http://www.steeda.com/PR/Musta...s.htm

Just the 1st 2 things that popped up on asearch.)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by motion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I totally agree with RJ. The toe is what really cause excessive tire wear. Think about it, if the toe is off by a degree, that would cause more tire wear than a degree of negative camber. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No it wouldn't.

 

I know what toe and camber is.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I 100% disagree </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This statment would be true IF you only drove in a straight line (or on the highway all the time). However, most of us like to turn, and a lot of us like to turn HARD. If your camber was set to zero, your tires would wear more on the outside edges. When you add negative camber, your tires are more inclined to wear evenly over time if you like spirited driving.

Toe, however, will destroy your tires very quickly if it is out of spec, as well as making your car very difficult to predict... </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree for the most part of the first paragraph. Your front and rear toe settings are set at corresponding angles (not the same) but corresponding to compensate for whatever driving. I wasn't saying set them both at zero. The rear is going to toe in more than the front from the factory (if I remeber correctly).
Also for the camber, there is that 1 degree to play with, not always at zero. And from that zero to 1, yes your tires are more prone to wear evenly, but I was really talking about greater than 1.25. For ex. you have your G35s and M5s that came negative and are supposed to be set negative and get pretty even wear when you take a set off. But I was reffering to a more extreme case like a Honda lowered 2"-2.5" without a camber kit you are looking at camber problems and excessive inner tie wear, even with the toe set.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know what toe and camber is.

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I never said you didn't. The links I posted just agreed with the statement I was making.
http://www.coximport.com/ingalls/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by motion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I totally agree with RJ. The toe is what really cause excessive tire wear. Think about it, if the toe is off by a degree, that would cause more tire wear than a degree of negative camber. </TD></TR></TABLE>

many of us have evidence to back this up as well.

For a few months, I had 3.4* front camber and 3.0* rear. Toe was 0 all the way around. I had NO uneven tire wear.

Also, previous to this, I had toe out in the rear (unbeknownst to me) and had horrific wear on the inside of both tires. This happened twice. Once on stock suspension (so 1*-ish of camber) and once on the setup that is listed above. Both instances... same bad tire wear. That was not the case when the toe was set to 0.

Chris - who knows many others have this same experience. Over a certain amount of camber.. sure. But this is not the 'general rule' for uneven tire wear. It's toe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris - who knows many others have this same experience. Over a certain amount of camber.. sure. But this is not the 'general rule' for uneven tire wear. It's toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. You'd need at least 3 deg to show any strange uneven wear.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I never said you didn't. The links I posted just agreed with the statement I was making.
http://www.coximport.com/ingalls/</TD></TR></TABLE>

I find it hard to trust opinions of those who are trying to sell me something.

 

we all can argue this back and forth, giving our own empirical experience and the experience of others to support our own stance. its really not going to ocnvince the other.

autoworks, since you work with alignments every day, next time you lower a car, please take a measurement before and after, and record both TOE and CAMBER so we can see changes on both. i think that would be more helpful in discussing what contributes more or changes out of spec to a greater degree, relatively.

 

Just speaking to the lead tech here. His quotes...
"Toe is the most critical only becuase it can eat the tires off in the shortest amount of time, which is why you can adjust the toe. Camber will cause the most permanent affect and requires more attention because if it is not fixed your tires would always wear unevenly. Toe easily fixed, camber, get a kit"

So yes your correct, but so am I. It has nothing to do with your caster and camber settings, but I was mistaken in saying that toe will have the biggest impact,it is also the easiest to fix.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris N &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

many of us have evidence to back this up as well.

For a few months, I had 3.4* front camber and 3.0* rear. Toe was 0 all the way around. I had NO uneven tire wear.

Also, previous to this, I had toe out in the rear (unbeknownst to me) and had horrific wear on the inside of both tires. This happened twice. Once on stock suspension (so 1*-ish of camber) and once on the setup that is listed above. Both instances... same bad tire wear. That was not the case when the toe was set to 0.

Chris - who knows many others have this same experience. Over a certain amount of camber.. sure. But this is not the 'general rule' for uneven tire wear. It's toe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I find it hard to trust opinions of those who are trying to sell me something.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree, thats why camber kits are so difficult to sell.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we all can argue this back and forth, giving our own empirical experience and the experience of others to support our own stance. its really not going to ocnvince the other.

autoworks, since you work with alignments every day, next time you lower a car, please take a measurement before and after, and record both TOE and CAMBER so we can see changes on both. i think that would be more helpful in discussing what contributes more or changes out of spec to a greater degree, relatively.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats a good idea, actually the machine always prints out where the car sits currently and what the OE specs are when we set the vehicle up.

 

well, thats before and after the alignment. id like to see the alignemnt before and after a ride height change.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, thats before and after the alignment. id like to see the alignemnt before and after a ride height change.</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK, I can get that done too

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just speaking to the lead tech here. His quotes...
"Toe is the most critical only becuase it can eat the tires off in the shortest amount of time, which is why you can adjust the toe. Camber will cause the most permanent affect and requires more attention because if it is not fixed your tires would always wear unevenly. Toe easily fixed, camber, get a kit"</TD></TR></TABLE>

uhh that's a total contradiction right? Toe is what causes where, camber is what causes companies to make lots of money selling camber kits. This has been covered 1 million times here.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autoworks &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So yes your correct, but so am I. It has nothing to do with your caster and camber settings, but I was mistaken in saying that toe will have the biggest impact,it is also the easiest to fix.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

no he's correct and you were wrong. Toe has the only impact on tire wear.