i just got an alignment and my left rear wheel is the only one out of spec. it has +0.1 camber and +0.35 toe (i spun into a dip/ditch when autocrossing). this is as far as they can adjust it.

so, would it be better and what effects will i see if i have either both rear wheels toed in the same direction or towards each other. / / as opposed to / \ ? assuming i will not buy anything to adjust the left rear toe. thanks

 

your gonna eat up tires unless you get it fixed

 

yea i know. i just wanna know which is better and why. and if both are equally bad, then why. would like to understand the effects.

 

Adding toe-out to the right rear to "match" the toe-in of your left rear will give you positive thrust angle, which you don't want. You want thrust angle to be zero.

What were the units of measurement for this alignment?

 

the units were in degrees. so it would be slightly better to run them both toe-in / \ ? or would that be just as bad.

 

// or \\ at the rear wheels will cause them to not follow directly in the path of the front wheels (the car will 'crab' to some degree), which may cause the car to handle and or steer a bit differently in left vs right hand corners, and may cause a slight pull in one direction.

If the problem is significantly bad you'll be driving down the road with the steering wheel pointed noticably away from the straight ahead, i.e. with // the steering wheel will point right (and the chassis will point slightly to the left), with \\ the steering will point left (and the chassis will point to the right).

Because the rear toe will always try to 'equalise' when driving in a straight line, /l will also cause 'crabbing' (i.e. with /l it will crab to the right as with //, but to a lesser degree than //), and of course you'll have toe-in.

/\ won't cause crabbing (if toe is equal each side),but of course you'll have doubled the toe problem caused by the bent part.

 

ok, now i understand what the effect toe has besides just tire wear. thanks a lot, that was very helpful.

 

Note that these affects only occur with rear toe because the rear wheels cannot steer. On the front there is really no such thing as having unequal toe on each side because the toe will always equalise when driving in a straght line (because the front wheels can steer), but one tie rod will be longer than the other and the steering wheel will be off centre.

 

Can you scan the printout?And what kind of car is it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">/

If the problem is significantly bad you'll be driving down the road with the steering wheel pointed noticably away from the straight ahead, i.e. with // the steering wheel will point right (and the chassis will point slightly to the left), with \\ the steering will point left (and the chassis will point to the right). </TD></TR></TABLE>

So will this be like drifting, but without the excessive tire wear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So will this be like drifting, but without the excessive tire wear? </TD></TR></TABLE>
You're still going to be getting tyre wear because the front alignment will be fighting the rear alignment in order to get the car to head in a straight line.

If you've done anything with your suspension, there's really no substitute to gett a good (expensive) four wheel laser alignment at a shop that specialises in performance and police vehicles.

The faster you go, the more of a handful your car's going to be. You should probably give up and fork over the $120 or so to get it aligned properly.

 

WHat kind of car?

 

its a 96 gsr. i already got an alignment and i know i need to get something fixed, havent figured out what. i just wanted to know what the effects would be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You're still going to be getting tyre wear because the front alignment will be fighting the rear alignment in order to get the car to head in a straight line. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, perhaps, but only to a very slight degree.

Wear is most strongly associated with toe, and if the rear alignment is // or \\ then rear toe will be zero and rear tyre wear will be minimal. However, if the rear alignment is l\ or /l or l/ or \l then toe exists and there will be increased rear wear due to that toe (dependant on how much toe exists of course).

In any of the cases above there will be 'thrust angle', which is caused by rear toe being set unequally relative to the chassis, even if no toe actually exists (in reality toe can exist only between wheel pairs one wheel relative to the other, not relative to the chassis, when 'toe' is measured individually at each rear wheel it's really a measure of thrust angle).

With unequally set rear toe (i.e. thrust angle whether actual toe exists or not), to travel in a straight line the front wheels will be turned slightly to one side (relative to the chassis) in order to point straight down the road. The 'Ackermann' affect causes the IF wheel to steer more than the OF wheel, so when the front wheels are steered to any degree some toe-out will be introduced, even if the toe was set accurately at zero when the alignment was performed.

This dynamic front toe will be the cause of any increased front tyre wear, but unless the rear alignment (i.e. thrust angle) is way off it will be minimal (the Ackermann affect is only very slight at small steering angles, though substantial at large steering angles).

 

i checked to see if anything is wrong but cant seem to find anything bent or out of place. the only thing i did find was that the gap between the wheel and trailing arm on the driver side was smaller than the passenger side, i dunno if that tells me anything.

the trailing arm and lower arm do not seem bent or messed up. i will look again if you think that that may be the main/only cause.

so, could anyone suggest what other parts to look at/look for. otherwise im just gonna get aftermarket toe arms and camber kit. any help is appreciated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well, perhaps, but only to a very slight degree. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What worries me even more than that is what the car's going to feel like in a high speed emergency manoeuvre.

 

on top of your fascinating discussion, do you have any suggestions?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTEC_Du_Ma_Mai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">on top of your fascinating discussion, do you have any suggestions?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, so you want information that might actually be useful rather than merely fascinating?! Sorry, I do tend to get bogged down in 'fascinating' at the expense of useful, I'll tell you what I can.

The rear toe is adjustable, but the range is limited, so if you have a problem that won't adjust out then something is wrong (sorry for stating the obvious). First thing that springs to mind is wear or compaction of the suspension bushes, so you might want to look there.

I once had an alignment done, and was told that the left side rear toe adjuster turned but it made almost no difference to the toe angle no matter where they set the adjuster, which did seem rather strange. At any rate, on getting the car home I dived under and started having a good look. What I found was that at some stage in the car's life the left rear toe adjuster had been installed incorrectly.

The rear toe adjustment will most probably be on the forward of the two lower control arms (on each side of the car), and be by means of a cam incorporated into the head of the arm's chassis attachment bolt (it will look like an eccentric washer under the bolt head, but it's an eccentric circular flange that is part of the bolt). On the other end of the bolt there will be an actual sperate eccentric washer that fits under the nut. This washer is keyed to the bolt, and rotates when the bolt is rotated to adjust camber.

As the bolt is rotated both the eccentric cam / flange on the bolt and the eccentric washer rotate but remain in the same lateral position due to their outer circular edges being constrained by flanges attached to the chassis, so what happens is that the bolt moves laterally in and out in slots in the chassis (the flange and eccentric washer also move up and down while the bolt doesn't, but this isn't a consideration in understanding what's going on).

On my car what had happened was that the eccentric washer at the nut end of the bolt had been fitted 180° out on the bolt, so that when the adjusting bolt was rotated the bolt head end moved in, as the nut end moved out (or vice versa). All that hapened was that the angle of the bolt changed with rotation (and the bolt shouldn't even be at an angle no matter where the toe is set), but the bolt as a whole didn't move in and out at both ends simultaneoulsy, so the toe didn't change.

If your toe adjusters rotate but the toe hardly changes, then I'll bet this is the problem. If the toe does change significantly but just fails to come to zero (or whatever you're trying to set it to, which should at least be fairly close to zero), then its either worn / compressed bushes or something is bent.

 

Based on what you said regarding the tire to trailing arm spacing, it sounds like your trailing arm is bent, or at least the hub on it is. You should get it repaired or replaced.
The rear toe is adjusted by the compensator arm, which is a short little arm about 6 or so inches at the front tip of the trailing arm. There is a slot where it bolts onto the chassis, and depending on where you mount it in the slot, moves the front of the trailing arm in or out, which adjusts toe. If it is all the way to one end of the slot, you have run out of adjustment range.

 

johnlear: when the compensator arm is moved, it does change the toe, so ill have to check the bushings and check again if anything is bent. thanks for the info

beanbag: yea the compensator arm is at the end of the slot so i cannot move it. so you think it is either the trailing arm or hub that is bent?


which one do you most likely think is bent, since it would seem that the trailing arm would have a higher chance of bending. and another thing, if i cant get it repaired or replaced, would it be ok for me to just buy the toe arm kit and camber kit to adjust all of this? as in, would it be bad if i dont actually replace the bent component? thanks for all the help

 

I don't know. Take off the tire and have a look. It's not that hard to replace the trailing arm. If you're really cheap, you can take a file or dremel and increase the length of the slot for the compensator arm. Using the amazing properties of geometry, you can calculate that the amount you need to zero the toe is

0.35/57*(distance from lca mount point to compensator arm = 0.1 inch or so.

You can do something similar for the camber.

This way, you won't even need to get an alignment.

 

yea i know its not that hard to replace it, it will just be hard for me to find a decent used one where i live. but i will look into it. if i cannot find one, im just gonna get the toe arm and camber kit. just curious though, how would you fix the camber by dremel/file since the holes in the chassis are threaded?

 

Fromwhat's being said, it sounds like the rearb suspension and toe adjustment on your car is somewhat different in principle to mine (a CB7 Acoord).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can do something similar for the camber.

This way, you won't even need to get an alignment.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You think?! In theory I'd agree, but in practice I'd check it! If nothing else at least this would be a good test of your geometrical ability should it measure spot on, or not...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You think?! In theory I'd agree, but in practice I'd check it! If nothing else at least this would be a good test of your geometrical ability should it measure spot on, or not...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I'm just being a real cheapskate here.
The toe spec seems to be 2 (+2,-1), whatever that means. I think the units are in mm, but mm of what I don't know. But one could probably move the compensator arm over with a precision of at least 1 mm. So declare it to be within specs and call it a day.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTEC_Du_Ma_Mai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yea i know its not that hard to replace it, it will just be hard for me to find a decent used one where i live. but i will look into it. if i cannot find one, im just gonna get the toe arm and camber kit. just curious though, how would you fix the camber by dremel/file since the holes in the chassis are threaded?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was gonna say that you fix it at the UCA to TA joint, but now that I think about it, maybe there is a threaded nut tack welded to the TA section.

NEW rear trailing arms can be gotten for $250 from ebay, which is maybe only a little more than the toe and camber adjusters you wanted to get.

Maybe you can just take your TA off and RRRRRRGH try to bend it back. It's up to you how much ghetto rigging you want to do.