I'm thinking it's time to do some real work on my b16 ... I have an 00 Si with minimal mods ... AEM Cold Air Intake with Apex'i filter and and Apex'i World Sport catback exhaust.... also a Zex dry 75 shot (yes, technicaly i'm not NA, but i am 98% of the time! )

So here's what i'm thinking ...

**REVISED**
b16a2
Buddy Club Spec III+ cams
Rocket Motorsports Valve Springs
Rocket Motorsports retainers
OmniPower valves
CTR pistons

And the occasional nitrous .. (are these cams okay with nitrous?)
I'm looking for a quick, very streetable (and of course reliable) daily driver. So how does this setup sounds? And opinions or comments on it? Thanks for your time.





Modified by Odiedogcx at 9:34 AM 9/16/2004

 

Well really the only good thing about the B16 is the ability to REV, and with the lack of TQ, you really have to. So I would suggest things that increase top end breathing ability...larger cams, maybe more agrressive intake manifold (ITR/Skunk is almost the same as B16 IM...maybe look at JG model), good 4-1 header, light wieght stuff (retainers, flywheel, etc).

Of course if you really wanted to hit RPM, getting a DART block with 84mm bore, extended deck and B16 crank would probably be good out to 10-11K RPM....deleicous indeed.

 

Going with the head now is a good first step, especially when on a tight budget. I am doing a similar setup with my 99 Si. The differences I have between mine and yours are the fact that I am using Buddy Club Stage III+ cams, Hondata s100, Omni Power Ti Retainers, Springs, and High Comp Valves. Going with a header with a 2.5" collector is a good choice. I am currently running a DC Sports JDM 4-1. Ground clearance sucks in some situations but if you want a header that makes good power and sells for under $500.00 this is your best bet. Anything over $500.00, you should look into the likes of Toda, Hytech, or DTR. The Toda is the most affordable out of the bunch but when you are spending that much money on a header, spend the few hundred bucks more and get a nice custom setup like the last two unless you are really pinching the pennies. As far as the TB goes, you can just get the stock bored out to 64mm (like I did) and pick up a ITR, Skunk2, or AEBS intake manifold (I'm running a Skunk2 but any of those manifolds will be an improvement over the stock B16. Go with what fits your budget.)

As far as headwork, you don't need to dump thousands of dollars into it as you'll wind up seeing diminishing returns with it the more you put into it. I, personally, have gone with the Street Master package from Alaniz. I am basically getting a P&P, milling the head .020, and a 3 angle valve job. All of that is running me $675.00 plus $50.00 for return shipping. Unfortunately, I'm being forced to wait until December when class is out for Christmas and New Year's so I can get it done. Can't be without my car during school since it's my only one. If you want headwork done, call any shop like Portflow, Alaniz, RLZ, or whoever else and ask them what you should do with your setup. As an aside, if you do plan on milling your head and want to run a higher compression piston on the bottom end later, make sure you do not mill too much off the head. Otherwise you will run into all kinds of clearance issues. I am going with only .020 off for this very reason. I would like to run some JDM B16 pistons later. That, coupled with the flat bottomed valves and milling, should give me a nice, peppy bump in compression. We'll see though if that ever pans out since a new car after college is on the horizon in 18 months.

Anyway, getting back on track, as far as running the NOS with that kind of setup, I personnally don't know much about it so you would probably be better off looking into it in a forum more appropriate for the subject. I personally don't think nitrous belongs on a daily driven vehicle myself, but that's just me and to each their own.

All this is from my personal experience looking into this for my own B16, what my friends and acquaintances have found what works best on their own cars, and what people who do this stuff for a living have told me while I was researching this. Dig around a little more and I'm sure you can get some direction on what to do with your B16.

 

wow .. alot of info. Thanks guys. Still deciding on what to go with, it changes all the time.

 

You will need more compression for those cams.

 

check our site for comparison between skunk2 and our manifold... Stg 2 cams would help also.

 

hmmm ... well i guess i need to decide on which cams to go with. Any suggestions? I want a stage 2 type cam .. agressive but still streetable .. i've always heard good things about the skunk2 stage 2 which i originally wanted, but now i'm hearing about the Buddy Club Spec III +, which go for $600 shipped WITH cam gears, and also abuot the Rocket cams witch go for $900 with valve train ... so any suggestions on what make the most power and have the best power band for a b16? thanks!

 

I recently did all the things you are talking about doing to my JDM B16 and I was happy but I wish I went ahead and put some ctr pistons in too while everything was apart and at the machine shop....it cost ggos money but worth it if everything is gonna be apart...just a though though man...good luck let us know how it goes...

 

If you want a larger powerband, which is what helps more in acceleration than just peak power, I would go with a milder cam than the stage 2's.

 

Hmmm ... Kteller has the Buddy Club Spec III + cams for $525, and you can make it a package deal with springs, valves and retainers for $400 more ..

 

Those cams would be more suitable for your engine package.

 

I'm thinking of a setup somehthing like this...

b16a2
Buddy Club Spec III+ cams
ITR valve springs
Possibly ITR retainers, or aftermarket
OmniPower valves

How's that sound? Of course i'll get a good flowing header, getting my TB bored out, and a good flowing intake mani and i'll get the compression bumped up.

Later, my block will be worked on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odiedogcx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking of a setup somehthing like this...

b16a2
Buddy Club Spec III+ cams
ITR valve springs
Possibly ITR retainers, or aftermarket
OmniPower valves

How's that sound? Of course i'll get a good flowing header, getting my TB bored out, and a good flowing intake mani and i'll get the compression bumped up.

Later, my block will be worked on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i like this setup. personally, i wouldn't trust ITR exhaust valvesprings on the BC exhaust cam.

 

sounds like a pretty good set-up, except i dont know about the itr retainers. i would go with a stronger retainer, although it will cost more, it will be safer in the long run and more able to withstand higher revs.

as for those cams, theres really no need to get stage 2's. i have ctr pistons in my b16 and im not even running stage 2's yet because i dont think my compression ratio is high enough for them, so im sticking with stage 1's for now.

other than that, theres really no other advice i can give you except b16's, actually all motors, love compression. thats where the power is.

by the way, i have everything done already that you are planning for and i love it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DefiantGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i like this setup. personally, i wouldn't trust ITR exhaust valvesprings on the BC exhaust cam. </TD></TR></TABLE>

From what i've read, the Buddy Club's peak power is around 8200 or something like that (i may be wrong), and ITR valve springs are safe up to 9000 rpms. I will probly end up getting something nicer then the ITR valve springs, but i'm starting with a budget/reliable plan, and taking it from there. Thank you for the info though.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anothersickhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds like a pretty good set-up, except i dont know about the itr retainers. i would go with a stronger retainer, although it will cost more, it will be safer in the long run and more able to withstand higher revs.

as for those cams, theres really no need to get stage 2's. i have ctr pistons in my b16 and im not even running stage 2's yet because i dont think my compression ratio is high enough for them, so im sticking with stage 1's for now.

other than that, theres really no other advice i can give you except b16's, actually all motors, love compression. thats where the power is.

by the way, i have everything done already that you are planning for and i love it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

By stages, are you referring to the Buddy Clubs or the Skunk2's? As of now, i'm pretty much set on the Buddy Club Spec III + cams. I don't think they're as agressive as the Skunk2 Stage 2's, they have a lower peak power, but they have better midrange and a better all around power band (also what i've read, so don't quote me). And like i said about the valve springs above, i will probly upgrade the retainers as well ... i might as well since my head will be torn apart anyways. I also read (yes, i read alot ) that the ideal compression for the Spec III+ cams are 10.4:1-13+ so i think i should get the compression .. i'm going to get a thinner headgasket and use the OmniPower valves which bump up the C/R .3-.5 (which i also read). I may sound like a complete dumbass, but i'm not the smartest guy in the world when it comes to all these numbers and i'm still figuring everything out ... thanks guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odiedogcx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From what i've read, the Buddy Club's peak power is around 8200 or something like that (i may be wrong), and ITR valve springs are safe up to 9000 rpms. I will probly end up getting something nicer then the ITR valve springs, but i'm starting with a budget/reliable plan, and taking it from there. Thank you for the info though.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not just valve float you have to worry about. Coil binding is still an issue. You're putting a valvespring that is usually on a 10.5mm lift cam(ITR) on a 11.5mm lift cam(BC). You get the point now. That is, unless you plan on running intake ITR valvesprings on both sides.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ironmonkee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and pick up a ITR, Skunk2, or AEBS intake manifold (I'm running a Skunk2 but any of those manifolds will be an improvement over the stock B16.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ummmmm, no. if you are not revving above 8400rpm, none of those are the best for the 16. p30 all the way

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16C1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ummmmm, no. if you are not revving above 8400rpm, none of those are the best for the 16. p30 all the way</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah , you're wrong.

ITR manifold on my b16 started making power at 6k over stock p30 mani.



show me a flatter torque curve on a stock block B16.

 

nice graph..i would post an owned pic right now

 

finding the perfect power curve with the most area under the curve for the b16 with cams is the hardest part about tuning it, IMO.

of course you want higher compression with those cams, but if you have higher compression than stock, would you increase the peak power in rpms??? meaning over 8200+?

I would aim to make at least 150hp at about 6500 rpms if it peaks around 8200. unless youll make the most area under the curve peaking over 8500 rpms.

 

I've also decided to go with CTR pistons .. and with a 1 layer headgasket i would have approx. 11.4:1 comp (according to the thing on C-SpeedRacing's site), and with a 2 layer and with a 2 layer it would be approx 11.1:1, i will also be using the OmniPower valves which i've read up the compression about .2-.4 ... so how does this compression sound for these cams? Should it be a pretty good power output with some good tuning and TLC ?

 

haha or maybe you should just buy back that damn holset haha either way, im gonna beat your ***! long time no see, gimmie a call sometime g

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WrongWD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha or maybe you should just buy back that damn holset haha either way, im gonna beat your ***! long time no see, gimmie a call sometime g</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol bite me ... i have no idea what your setup is other then b18b ... but i'm sure it'll be a close race

 

put a b17 crank and rods, wit some ctr pistons, deck the block so its the same hieght as the other b sereis blocks, and some good head work wit some cams, u good to go

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Odiedogcx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've also decided to go with CTR pistons .. and with a 1 layer headgasket i would have approx. 11.4:1 comp (according to the thing on C-SpeedRacing's site), and with a 2 layer and with a 2 layer it would be approx 11.1:1, i will also be using the OmniPower valves which i've read up the compression about .2-.4 ... so how does this compression sound for these cams? Should it be a pretty good power output with some good tuning and TLC ? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Might want to read this .... https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=717928


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by omniman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stock b16a with ctr pistons
cyl vol. 398.6cc
head Gasket 2.8cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc big vol= 436.8
camber vol. 44cc small vol= 38.2 stock b16a=11.43
deck height .5mm+ 2.3cc

stock type-r motor with ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 488.3cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 39.2cc stock type-r=12.45
camber vol. 44cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 449.1cc

lsvtec with b16 head and ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 497.6cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 39.2cc stock lsvtec=12.7
camber vol. 44cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 458.4cc

lsvtec with gsr head and ctr pistons
head Gasket 2.8cc big vol= 495.6cc
piston dome vol. 6.3cc small vol= 37.2cc stock gsr/lsvtec=13.3
camber vol. 42cc
deck height .25mm 1.3cc
cyl vol. 458.4cc

stock gasket is .026in thick and has a volume of about 2.8cc's
b16 pr3 pistons, b18c type-r pistons and b16b ctr pistons all have a different compression height. the pr3 pistons have the smallest and the ctr pistons have the biggest. with type-r in the middle

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or these figues w/ PCT (CTR) pistons....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Altered &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit:
PR3 head/B16 Block

STD = 11.643438609136867
.25 OS = 11.703231023151065

PR3 head/B17 Block

STD = 12.193487116069006
.25 OS = 12.256369577319077

PR3 head/B18C Block

STD = 12.58636786521145
.25 OS = 12.649248792586258

P72 head/B18C Block

STD = 12.924594026551906
.25 OS = 12.989047869209281

PR3 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 12.825536009218106
.25 OS = 12.88971493738735

P72 head/B18A/B Block

STD = 13.170743903246784
.25 OS = 13.236528215133324

All calculated using OEM 3 layer gasket @ .026 and the compression height provided by Omniman
</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by DDD at 11:02 AM 9/18/2004


Modified by DDD at 11:04 AM 9/18/2004