Which do u think you think is better or which do u prefer <U>non</U> vtec or vtec.Lika as far as torque and Hp numbers etc. And i now there are a lot of <U>non</U>[ vtec guys out there and a lot of vtec guys out there some come and share your knowledge.


Modified by BseriesEh2 at 5:10 AM 9/6/2004


Modified by BseriesEh2 at 5:10 AM 9/6/2004


Modified by BseriesEh2 at 5:40 AM 9/6/2004

 

welll...depends if you are talking stock or rebuilt.

I have gone thru non vtec and vtec for b series... and personally... I'd like vtec anyday... but if you build a nonvtec engine nicely... it's not bad at all. But the fact of the matter remains... for a street car... it's easier to make the power w/ a vtec equipped engine.

I mean... a basically stock vtec engine vs it's non vtec counter part already has a 20+hp advantage... that's like running upgraded cams on a nonvtec engine.... while with the vtec one... you already have that hp advantage w/ the stock parts.

ok....sleep now...work 2mrw... I'll be driving my MIVEC car... since the VTEC one is in a coma....

 

I agree with X2. I for one like the powerbands of the lsvtecs and the b20vtecs. They are very nice. Its just too difficult to build a high horsepower non vtec ls and still have it be reliable enough on the street.

 

I've wondered about the vtec vs non vtec in dealing w/ the d-series d16z6 compared to the d16y7 heads,which are supposeably the same dealing w/ head chamber and intake and exhaust port sizes. I'm would like to know if the same power, theoritically, can be produced just the gas effeciency would vary due to vtec. I'm still learning, so I would like to know what diferences have been proven?

 

Im talking built non vtec to and built vtec.

 

Im talking built non vtec to built vtec.

 

Well... built vs built means kinda... non limits in a way...

So, IMO, vtec would win hands down. I mean, the LS for instance, does not have as efficient of a combustion chamber or even the ports to compete.

A mildly worked over non vtec head will more than likely flow as well as a stock b16 vtec head... whilst the vtec head is already flowing that w/o the headwork. The head is normally a restriction and lots of power lurks in there if it's worked just right. With a vtec head, you can make great power w/o even touching it.

With the non vtec head on the other hand... adding cams and so fourth will only take you so far before you realize you NEED headwork... you will go much further w/ a stock vtec head before encountering that problem.

 

Come on anybody else want to share were are all the non vtec people.

 

Ive done tons of work on both heads.The ports of both are basically the same size.The major difference is the vtec heads having 2mm larger intake valves.The combustion chambers are similar in shape and port entrances are similar in size.The older style LS heads did have smaller intake ports than the newer though.For a street car a vtec head would be a much better choice.For all out race cars..it really depends.You can get cams for either with similar lift's and durations and you can make either head flow extremely well.The vtec valvetrain is much more stable for high rpm and large lift cams.Ive had problems with the rockers popping out of the sockets with non vtec heads at 9k rpm w/ crower 404 cams.It's not hard to cure but there is no definate solution that I know of for the biggest cams and 11k rpm.The exhaust ports...valve size and flow are pretty much the same.

 

With a P8R head, you can get a non vtec head to flow just as well as a vtec counterpart. The trouble comes with getting the rocker arms stable enough to handle high rpms.

For a street car of course vtec is the best way about it, thats what vtec was used for. (certainly not performance)

However a built non-vtec can put a hurting on build vtecs in some situations. I have experienced it personally with a relatively stock B20.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BseriesEh2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Come on anybody else want to share were are all the non vtec people.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty sure that you won't see anyone on h-t saying anything like "vtec is bad".
If that's what you have in mind..

 

vtec is bad

on race engines.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With a P8R head, you can get a non vtec head to flow just as well as a vtec counterpart. The trouble comes with getting the rocker arms stable enough to handle high rpms.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

both good points however p8r heads are supa rare.... too bad though, i think they should have been standard on all b20's


anyway both can be good main thing against the non vtec though like said before is the valve size (wich only really hurts top top end its actually gonna help lower to mid end) and the crappy rocker arm design. anyone care to share meathods of fixing this?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by X2BOARD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">welll...depends if you are talking stock or rebuilt.

I have gone thru non vtec and vtec for b series... and personally... I'd like vtec anyday... but if you build a nonvtec engine nicely... it's not bad at all. But the fact of the matter remains... for a street car... it's easier to make the power w/ a vtec equipped engine.

I mean... a basically stock vtec engine vs it's non vtec counter part already has a 20+hp advantage... that's like running upgraded cams on a nonvtec engine.... while with the vtec one... you already have that hp advantage w/ the stock parts.

ok....sleep now...work 2mrw... I'll be driving my MIVEC car... since the VTEC one is in a coma....</TD></TR></TABLE>

These are all good points! Vtec is better for a car that will be daily driven as where a non-vtec wont! A lot of ppl say they drive their built nonvtecs eveyday but I dont(very rough to drive in stop/go traffic)! However nonvtecs are far more affordable to built than Vtecs, and you dont have to wait for vtec to kick to feel power, b/c in non-vtecs its already there! Everything here depends on your preference though and what goals you are striving for!

 

I think Todas Vtec killer camshafts were a pretty innovative idea. If you are making a race car then there is no sense having an aggressive secondary lobe and mild primary. If you have the same primary and secondary, I think it might be easier to optimize the area under the curve without the vtec changeover. It is kinda the best of both worlds with the better following head and the aggressive primary lobe. I am by no means saying Vtec is bad in fact I have a B16, but I am saying there is no reason running without vtec can not be just as fast if not faster (reliability of course is a factor with the rockers like previously stated).

 

vtec allows you to run a very large cam and still be able to idle at 900 rpms and it allows you to have power and torque b4 5k that is why they are so great on the street. try running 500 lift cams with out vtec on the street see how you like it so it all depends on what u are doing if you are road racing where u dont go below 6k then vtec is pointless so there is no real arguement to which is better over all...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pr0honda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">vtec allows you to run a very large cam and still be able to idle at 900 rpms and it allows you to have power and torque b4 5k that is why they are so great on the street. try running 500 lift cams with out vtec on the street see how you like it</TD></TR></TABLE>

Vtec is an idle and gas lobe. Because of the displacement increase in the non-vtecs, there is no trouble with torque below 5k.

Even the 405A-2's have plenty of torque above 1,500rpm.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StyleTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Vtec is an idle and gas lobe. Because of the displacement increase in the non-vtecs, there is no trouble with torque below 5k.

Even the 405A-2's have plenty of torque above 1,500rpm.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats why I like Non-Vtec, the Torque!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thats why I like Non-Vtec, the Torque!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I personally don't see why people equate non-VTEC with torque. My experience has shown this to not really be the case. Does an LS have more torque than a B16A. Sure. But that is due to displacement and not the whole VTEC vs non-VTEC issue. In fact, my B18C5 has more torque than the LS I used to have in my HB ever did.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I personally don't see why people equate non-VTEC with torque. My experience has shown this to not really be the case. Does an LS have more torque than a B16A. Sure. But that is due to displacement and not the whole VTEC vs non-VTEC issue. In fact, my B18C5 has more torque than the LS I used to have in my HB ever did.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm Interesting. Style Teg care to bring out your Dyno with Your LS VS ITR motor?

 

this has turn out to be a stupid debate.... some people here like non vtec and most like vtec so it is going to be a continuing argument so just end it now...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> But that is due to displacement and not the whole VTEC vs non-VTEC issue. In fact, my B18C5 has more torque than the LS I used to have in my HB ever did.</TD></TR></TABLE>

One could argue that the power difference between VTEC and NON-VTEC is simply more aggressive cam profiles and a better flowing head... not VTEC at all. (which is simply the ability to switch between two cam profiles).

And as requested



Red = my torque
Blue = ITR torque

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I personally don't see why people equate non-VTEC with torque. My experience has shown this to not really be the case. Does an LS have more torque than a B16A. Sure. But that is due to displacement and not the whole VTEC vs non-VTEC issue. In fact, my B18C5 has more torque than the LS I used to have in my HB ever did.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im not saying I dont like vtec, I like both Vtec and nonvtec, but you have to admit with nonvtec you are not waiting for power b/c if you have power, its already there and can pull hard all the way through the RPM band rather than just from 5K and above! And STYLETEG's dyno sheet proves just that!

Like I said I am not knocking Vtec, b/c I have vtec motors too!

And yes more torque comes from more displacement; and look at the no-vtec motors: LS and B20. They have the most displacement out of the B-series motors, thats why you see ppl using them to build LS/VTECs and B20/Vtecs!

 

does that 37cc extra really make that big of a difference? even then, there's no stopping people with b18c's boring out their motor to increase displacement.

 

I personnally like non vtec motors just because they are simpler and cheaper. My favorite being the b20. by the time your done spending the same amount as a GSR motor and you've swapped out everything from the IM to EM and tuning you have a motor that will have more HP @ 7K which is a very streetable redline and a grip more tq and if it ever blows up you can find them everywhere for 7-800 bux for the long block

Of course with the trans the vtec motors especially the JDM 98+ R own for gear selection