I got my cage back from my fabricator (a friend, who's done several for him and his sons) and at first inspection, everything looked really good. He did a full horizontal harness bar with a 2 piece diagonal, which at first I was concerned with, but after talking with the AZ and SoCal tech directors who said they've seen them that way before and don't have a problem with it, put my mind at ease. Now to the fun involved in painting it.

Only, I discovered while painting that there are quite a few places that are really tight tolerances to interior paneling, and the tubes were not welded all of the way around. Places like: the bottom-most verticals of the NASCAR bars towards the rocker panel, the side tubes facing the A and B pillars, and the tip-tops of the rear supports at the main hoop. Obviously, the NASA/SCCA rules state that welds must be "360 degrees continous around the end of each tube." All of the easy to get at welds look beautiful, and the ones that aren't complete, are at least 3/4 of the way around, but I fully realize that that doesn't cut it. Also looks like, to recycle too-short tubing, he made a two piece front dash bar, with a sleeve in the middle. I don't know what the exact ruling on this is, but I know the fact that the weld on the sleeve not going around all the way isn't kosher.

So, now with alot of paint all over the place already, I have to call him back and say, "dude, you didn't finish the job," or try to finish it myself. He's never had any problems with other cages he's built passing tech, so I don't know if it was just an oversight (his son had a race the following weekend and he needed to get my car out of the way...could have just been a mistake. I won't know till I call him) How have people dealt with welding the bars in these areas, where there's only 3/4" or so between where you need to weld, and the B pillar or roof. I'm of limited welding skill myself, but I can see it almost impossible to get a standard MIG tip into these places, at the right angle. The only way I could see to complete it now, is to get a stick welder, bend the tip of the electrode, and weld to the bend, rebend it again, and so on. Anyone have any ideas of secrets to getting at these hard to reach locations, cuz right now I have a hunk of metal in my car that doesn't allow me to pass tech or race? Don't even think I'd be allowed to HPDE with it in this condition, nor would I want to.

I'll try to post some pics later of these really hard to reach locations, although I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about.

My first major setback. Looks like I won't be making it to Firebird, AZ in two weeks. Oh well, I'm sure there will be many more disappointments. I'm smart enough to realize that I have no idea what I've gotten myself into, but dumb enough to forge ahead anyways. Gotta race somehow.

 

You paid for a competition cage to SCCA or NASA spec, that's what you should expect. Nothing less.

The two piece bar is not a problem if connected properly.

 

tsk tsk tsk, should've gone with the Cusco cage.

 

Painting a cage sure can surface any shortcoming with its design or construction. Sorry to hear it but really, if this guy is worth paying a dime to he should finish welding all the way around the thing at no charge.

BTW - "Out with the new, in with the old." I like it

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> How have people dealt with welding the bars in these areas, where there's only 3/4" or so between where you need to weld, and the B pillar or roof.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not a cage builder myself, but generally these tight areas are done before the feet are mounted to the floor. If you cut holes in your floor where the foot plates will go you can drop the tubing down through these holes which brings the halo of your cage down 6-8 inches for more room. It also lets you tilt the front section of the cage to get the door bars and dash bar, but not by much. Then you can lift it up to the roof and cover the holes with the foot plates before welding the feet together.

As for what your builder is going to do at this point, I don't know. Sorry to hear that we won't be seeing you at FIR.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grumpy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The two piece bar is not a problem if connected properly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The sleeved, two piece, or the two piece diagonal? I would think the sleeved two piece wouldn't be okay, since you're creating a weak point with a smaller diameter tube, unless it's just the fact that the welds don't go all the way around. I've already gotten a green light for the two piece diagonal.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tsk tsk tsk, should've gone with the Cusco cage. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I said I was dumb, but not that dumb.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not a cage builder myself, but generally these tight areas are done before the feet are mounted to the floor. If you cut holes in your floor where the foot plates will go you can drop the tubing down through these holes which brings the halo of your cage down 6-8 inches for more room. It also lets you tilt the front section of the cage to get the door bars and dash bar, but not by much. Then you can lift it up to the roof and cover the holes with the foot plates before welding the feet together.

As for what your builder is going to do at this point, I don't know. Sorry to hear that we won't be seeing you at FIR. </TD></TR></TABLE>

They did the holes in the floor thing, and got the forward support bars in really nice. I just don't think they spent the time to do the rest the right way. I'm bummed about not making FIR, too, it looks like a really cool track. I'll be there in October, for the SCCA school (I think Paul B.'s going to be there, too), so I'll still get to drive it, just a month later.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm bummed about not making FIR, too, it looks like a really cool track. I'll be there in October, for the SCCA school (I think Paul B.'s going to be there, too), so I'll still get to drive it, just a month later.

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FIR main has some big walls. Better safe than sorry. I would just approach him about finishing the job. He certainly doesn't want his reputation based on this kind of work so I'm sure he'll be more than willing to make it right.

 

Talk to the tech guys down there. If you can't get a 360* weld, you might get an allowance to gussett the area that wasn't welded.

Sounds to me like there wasn't a way to get the torch in there. I know that on the last Civic that Rog & James did, they had to move the main hoop forward to get the nascar bars right without cutting b-pillar away.

 

I would have the dash bar replaced. No questions asked or arguements started. You paid for a quality product, make him give it to you.

For what it is worth I have looked around a few Porsche factory cages and I know for a fact some of the bars were not welded 360 degrees around the tube. Granted it is not like this on every bar and 90-95% of the tube has a bead around it. &lt;shrug&gt; But honestly, I think it would pass tech.

 

We have 360 degree welds on all welds, on all parts of our cages.

The way travis stated, with the holes through the floor, is one way to do it.

The way we do it is with more complex "box" bases, which are about 4 inches tall, and bead welded during fitting, then removed to drop the cage 4 inches, which will provide ample welding room.

The other advantage to box bases, is that the cage bases are connected to multiple points other than the floor pan. The center hoop bases on our car is connected to the floor pan, the side rail (lower door frame, much stronger than sheetmetal in the floorpan), and the center horizontal "spine" (? I cant think of a beter way to explain it right now...)

Sorry to hear about your cage. I would suggest that you definitely get 360 on these welds since your Nascar/side impact protection is based on the structure (or lack) of your cage. Weld's popping off would really suck...

I wonder why the knee bar is two pieces?

Good luck.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D.CACO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The way travis stated, with the holes through the floor, is one way to do it.
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That is the way to do it....The main 4 points are built in the car and then "raised" into position.

 

Both.

The sleeved two piece is OK because bolt in cages are OK and are composed of pieces only bolted together.

Certainly not as strong, but the question was on legality.

 

Door bars are the hardest bars to weld 360 degrees. Buy cutting a hole in the floor is not going to solve that problem if the main hoop is hidden behind the b-pillar. Tech's will require you to to add a gusset to the top or bottom of the joint. Not a big deal. Does suck though on the paint job. I am sure if you are civil, you won't have a problem in getting him to add the gusstes at no charge.