Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts.
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From: Hammonton, NJ
Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts.
Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts.
After buying a race car I realized there is something that folks do not talk about... that is, when you buy a race car it's sits in the garage until you have both the time and the money to take it to a track. I really never thought about the pain, angst and insanity this would cause... to have an unregistered, unlicensed car sitting in the garage just waiting. Waiting... Sometimes I wish I'd never seen an IT race.
After showing a couple of my nephews the HotWheels collection in the basement, I let them open a couple and play. We built a ramp and a jump and things for the cars to jump over and crash into. Later I showed them the race car in the garage and realized this car isn't much different then the 1/64 scale cars still in the package in the basement. I'm not playing with them.
Buyer's remorse seeps into my mind on occasion, perhaps it's simply because I haven't actually made it to a race yet, but the question occurred to me IF I wasn't interested in wheel to wheel racing, what car would be the best to suit daily or even occasional street driving, autocross duty and an occasional track day? The thoughts continued and figured I could sell the ITA car for about 5-6K. The tow vehicle and the trailer would be kept for the occasional track day and long-haul to an autocross. Not to mention the Suburban's usefulness for Home Depot trips. If money was no object, my first choice would be the (Federal) Lotus Elise. (hmmm, maybe if I sell the IT car, and Suburban and the trailer... hmmm.) It's minimal weight, and mid-engine rear wheel drive layout are extremely appealing. Another car that would require a bit of money, not to mention time to build, would be Factory-Five Cobra (Kit car). But this is the real world and I haven't that amount of cash. Miata, keeps popping up as an all-around excellent car that would be able to do all three things (street, autoX and HPDEs)... and there's a good amount of used hunks of metal that could be refreshed for the 5-6K I'd get from selling the CRX. The coolest thing about the Miata is that even in stock trim the car exhibits excellent characteristics and is competitive in ES, or CS depending on the year. It's tight, light and nimble. The same reasons I love CRXs.
Insanity aside, I still can not part with the ITA car. Not yet. It's been about 6 or 7 years since the first time I saw an ITA race at Road Atlanta. If I can trace my desire to race to any one event, this was it. The "dream" if you want to call it that, is now within my grasp. I've gone to school, I've invested in much amounts of autocross seat time and a few track days. It seems silly to walk away now... I haven't really started yet.
Yet the CRX sits in the garage, the spiders have become used to it's appearance and prefer it over the lawnmower. I can't drive it on the street. When I show friends the car, they just don't understand... you have to get in it, drive it, and experience it to understand... There are no do-dads to impress them with. Just a gutted hollow shell, that houses this really sweet transmission. But they can't see that... The desire to race is so intangible.
The four unpackaged 1/64th scale cars sat on the dresser for a couple weeks (A Lotus, the 355 Ferrari Challenge car, the Porsche Cararra, and the 64 Impala with the roots-type blower sticking out of the hood) until this past Sunday I brought them over to my wife, who's on bed-rest until Nov. 5th or she gives birth... and decided to play cars with her. It's not quite the same as when I was a kid.
I'm going to play with the full-scale car this upcoming Saturday. I can not wait! As you can see the fact I haven't driven at either and autocross or a track day in a while has caused me a bit of insanity... I'm playing with HotWheels for Pete's sake.
If I could somehow erase the memory of the IT race @ Road Atlanta, I could be satisfied doing track days and autocross. What car would I own? What car would you? All three things must work... street/autoX and track days.
After buying a race car I realized there is something that folks do not talk about... that is, when you buy a race car it's sits in the garage until you have both the time and the money to take it to a track. I really never thought about the pain, angst and insanity this would cause... to have an unregistered, unlicensed car sitting in the garage just waiting. Waiting... Sometimes I wish I'd never seen an IT race.
After showing a couple of my nephews the HotWheels collection in the basement, I let them open a couple and play. We built a ramp and a jump and things for the cars to jump over and crash into. Later I showed them the race car in the garage and realized this car isn't much different then the 1/64 scale cars still in the package in the basement. I'm not playing with them.
Buyer's remorse seeps into my mind on occasion, perhaps it's simply because I haven't actually made it to a race yet, but the question occurred to me IF I wasn't interested in wheel to wheel racing, what car would be the best to suit daily or even occasional street driving, autocross duty and an occasional track day? The thoughts continued and figured I could sell the ITA car for about 5-6K. The tow vehicle and the trailer would be kept for the occasional track day and long-haul to an autocross. Not to mention the Suburban's usefulness for Home Depot trips. If money was no object, my first choice would be the (Federal) Lotus Elise. (hmmm, maybe if I sell the IT car, and Suburban and the trailer... hmmm.) It's minimal weight, and mid-engine rear wheel drive layout are extremely appealing. Another car that would require a bit of money, not to mention time to build, would be Factory-Five Cobra (Kit car). But this is the real world and I haven't that amount of cash. Miata, keeps popping up as an all-around excellent car that would be able to do all three things (street, autoX and HPDEs)... and there's a good amount of used hunks of metal that could be refreshed for the 5-6K I'd get from selling the CRX. The coolest thing about the Miata is that even in stock trim the car exhibits excellent characteristics and is competitive in ES, or CS depending on the year. It's tight, light and nimble. The same reasons I love CRXs.
Insanity aside, I still can not part with the ITA car. Not yet. It's been about 6 or 7 years since the first time I saw an ITA race at Road Atlanta. If I can trace my desire to race to any one event, this was it. The "dream" if you want to call it that, is now within my grasp. I've gone to school, I've invested in much amounts of autocross seat time and a few track days. It seems silly to walk away now... I haven't really started yet.
Yet the CRX sits in the garage, the spiders have become used to it's appearance and prefer it over the lawnmower. I can't drive it on the street. When I show friends the car, they just don't understand... you have to get in it, drive it, and experience it to understand... There are no do-dads to impress them with. Just a gutted hollow shell, that houses this really sweet transmission. But they can't see that... The desire to race is so intangible.
The four unpackaged 1/64th scale cars sat on the dresser for a couple weeks (A Lotus, the 355 Ferrari Challenge car, the Porsche Cararra, and the 64 Impala with the roots-type blower sticking out of the hood) until this past Sunday I brought them over to my wife, who's on bed-rest until Nov. 5th or she gives birth... and decided to play cars with her. It's not quite the same as when I was a kid.
I'm going to play with the full-scale car this upcoming Saturday. I can not wait! As you can see the fact I haven't driven at either and autocross or a track day in a while has caused me a bit of insanity... I'm playing with HotWheels for Pete's sake.
If I could somehow erase the memory of the IT race @ Road Atlanta, I could be satisfied doing track days and autocross. What car would I own? What car would you? All three things must work... street/autoX and track days.
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From: Near Charlotte
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (emwavey)
Wow, It sounds like the crossroads are creeping up on you as what to do. I understand the pain everything was looking great with finances and getting everything together and then it hits the wifes 50K in student loans are coming due. After I purchase a perfect 88 CRX not running but everything is complete and start stripping it down to make into a race car, all funds get burned up by life. I go out and vist the car as it sits there torn apart awaiting rebirth onto the pavement. And yet when I go to HPDE's in my 91 CRX is makes me desire having my 88 CRX to have more fun in but alas the car will sit and also befriend some more spiders and occasionally get it rear tire wash by my stupid dog. But slowly as things get better more and more time is spent to bring it back up and have it on the track. Playing with cars...hmmm still do from hot wheels to big truck, if it has more that 2 wheels and a motor then I am probably around it.
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From: Montreal, Canada
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (CRX Toad)
I share that feeling that the race car is a hulk of unused metal most of the time, making it an expensive toy. I also resent that my race car is a 2000 Civic Si and my street car is a rusted 1990 Mazda 323. One small consolation: I keep the race car street registered so I can drive more that simply at track events. Obviously, this hurts the competitivity of the car, but I had no chance at being competitive locally on my budget anyhow.
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From: WI, USA
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (Civic44)
Depending on how developed the car is, slap a muffler and plate and whatever other parts are necessary to make it streetable and have some fun.
I toy with this idea every so often since there is a considerable investment just sitting in the garage between the 3-5 events that I run per year...
I toy with this idea every so often since there is a considerable investment just sitting in the garage between the 3-5 events that I run per year...
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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (ITC Racer)
Having just renewed the NC State inspection and tabs on my race car, I have some thoughts... 
The competitiveness of the GTI will ALWAYS be a compromise because I want it to be a multipurpose toy. I talked to Walt P. about a header and he made the observation that, as long as i have a cat, the header is kind of pointless. I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but the point is valid.
I really like that I can do an HPDE thing (Tarheel driver school in two weeks) and not have to make a big production out of it. I drove to and from the CMP regional a few weeks back and my *** was tired when I got home but I saved a bunch of dough.
Make no mistake - this is strictly a racing car in that I don't go sport around the countryside on non-race weekends but being street legal does buy me a degree of freedom that most racecars don't allow.
One conversation did get me thinking down at Kershaw, though. It was suggested that an IT car is "unreliable" on the street. What? If anything, the Golf is way better cared for than my street car (albeit older) and if a person wouldn't trust his race car to get him 150 miles to the track and then home again, why would one expect it to stay together for the duration of practice, qualifying, and a race?
Do a hillclimb. Do a club track day. Do a rallycross. Heck - do a SoloII if you can stand them. Do stuff that doesn't require a huge entry fee and a full 2+ days of weekend. It's fun and it's a buttload easier if you don't have to trailer yourself everywhere you go.
http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/events.php
K
The competitiveness of the GTI will ALWAYS be a compromise because I want it to be a multipurpose toy. I talked to Walt P. about a header and he made the observation that, as long as i have a cat, the header is kind of pointless. I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but the point is valid.
I really like that I can do an HPDE thing (Tarheel driver school in two weeks) and not have to make a big production out of it. I drove to and from the CMP regional a few weeks back and my *** was tired when I got home but I saved a bunch of dough.
Make no mistake - this is strictly a racing car in that I don't go sport around the countryside on non-race weekends but being street legal does buy me a degree of freedom that most racecars don't allow.
One conversation did get me thinking down at Kershaw, though. It was suggested that an IT car is "unreliable" on the street. What? If anything, the Golf is way better cared for than my street car (albeit older) and if a person wouldn't trust his race car to get him 150 miles to the track and then home again, why would one expect it to stay together for the duration of practice, qualifying, and a race?
Do a hillclimb. Do a club track day. Do a rallycross. Heck - do a SoloII if you can stand them.
Do stuff that doesn't require a huge entry fee and a full 2+ days of weekend. It's fun and it's a buttload easier if you don't have to trailer yourself everywhere you go.http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/events.php
K
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Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Hammonton, NJ
Re: (genxguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">e36 M3? Latest issue of GRM is weighing heavily on my mind. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Makes me think about the IS300 I drove last year at a BFG, autocross-like day. I loved that car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic44 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I keep the race car street registered so I can drive more that simply at track events. Obviously, this hurts the competitivity of the car, but I had no chance at being competitive locally on my budget anyhow. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've considered doing that, registering the car, but the rollcage is a bit tight and I'm not liking the idea of banging my thick, bare skull against it. The factory seat belts are gone, NASCAR bars eliminated the driver's side glass, suspension would be pretty bad for at least my local streets in Pothole City.
Nevermind me it's been over a month since I've gotten some seat time.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Makes me think about the IS300 I drove last year at a BFG, autocross-like day. I loved that car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic44 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I keep the race car street registered so I can drive more that simply at track events. Obviously, this hurts the competitivity of the car, but I had no chance at being competitive locally on my budget anyhow. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've considered doing that, registering the car, but the rollcage is a bit tight and I'm not liking the idea of banging my thick, bare skull against it. The factory seat belts are gone, NASCAR bars eliminated the driver's side glass, suspension would be pretty bad for at least my local streets in Pothole City.
Nevermind me it's been over a month since I've gotten some seat time.
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From: Orlando FL, USA
Re: (emwavey)
The M3 and the IS300 are both excellent choices. You made a great observation yourself with the miata. Another race favorite for bargain racers is the first generation rx-7. The miata and rx-7 solo races are some of the most competitive ever. These two cars are probably your best bet. I would personally go with the miata if it is doing all of the things you want it to.
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From: Hammonton, NJ
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Having just renewed the NC State inspection and tabs on my race car, I have some thoughts...
The competitiveness of the GTI will ALWAYS be a compromise because I want it to be a multipurpose toy. I talked to Walt P. about a header and he made the observation that, as long as i have a cat, the header is kind of pointless. I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but the point is valid.
...
Do a hillclimb. Do a club track day. Do a rallycross. Heck - do a SoloII if you can stand them. Do stuff that doesn't require a huge entry fee and a full 2+ days of weekend. It's fun and it's a buttload easier if you don't have to trailer yourself everywhere you go.
http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/events.php
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good stuff.
For the exhaust thing, I'm wondering if a quick disconnect or a by-pass would help during race day... kind of like what drag racers do. That might be becoming too ****.
I'm pretty familiar with your V-dub project. I think it's a great idea, and one that I think captures the true essence of what club racing should be, or once-was.
I'll digress a bit... in driving a mildly prepared CRX in C Street Prepared for three seasons I felt some pride being able to come close to some of the "trailer queens". The phrase "street prepared" always made me laugh since none of the top competitors actually drove their car on the street. A bit back on topic, I find it almost as amusing when folks bicker about weenie rules and as I'm learning, more and more folks are coming to the races with HUGE rigs. For what? Improved Touring?
I think Kirk you nailed the spirit of IT, come, have fun, don't spend truck loads of cash just to be competitive. I congratulate you for not having the mentality of "keeping up with the Jonessesses".
Perhaps I was a bit too hasty in jumping in. However I know myself and if I had taken the route of build a little at a time, I don't think I would have gotten any further. I'm not wanting this to turn into a build vs. buy thread or a feel sorry for me thread (I'm quite happy to own a race prepared car), but the folks that say buy already built have probably only built the car, not just bought one. There are pros and cons to both. Personally I don't see there is much difference. Since my main goal is to get some seat time, safely and legally, perhaps merely putting in a 4pt. rollbar would have sufficed.
What if I stuffed the car?... AAA to the rescue. Again, just thinking out loud here, perhaps IF folks drove their IT cars to and from the track their would be a little less inclination for metal to metal contact.
Again, I'll probably feel much better about the whole thing once I'm on a track.
(blue or red pill... let see how deep this hole really goes)
The competitiveness of the GTI will ALWAYS be a compromise because I want it to be a multipurpose toy. I talked to Walt P. about a header and he made the observation that, as long as i have a cat, the header is kind of pointless. I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but the point is valid.
...
Do a hillclimb. Do a club track day. Do a rallycross. Heck - do a SoloII if you can stand them.
Do stuff that doesn't require a huge entry fee and a full 2+ days of weekend. It's fun and it's a buttload easier if you don't have to trailer yourself everywhere you go.http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/events.php
K</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good stuff.
For the exhaust thing, I'm wondering if a quick disconnect or a by-pass would help during race day... kind of like what drag racers do. That might be becoming too ****.
I'm pretty familiar with your V-dub project. I think it's a great idea, and one that I think captures the true essence of what club racing should be, or once-was.
I'll digress a bit... in driving a mildly prepared CRX in C Street Prepared for three seasons I felt some pride being able to come close to some of the "trailer queens". The phrase "street prepared" always made me laugh since none of the top competitors actually drove their car on the street. A bit back on topic, I find it almost as amusing when folks bicker about weenie rules and as I'm learning, more and more folks are coming to the races with HUGE rigs. For what? Improved Touring?
I think Kirk you nailed the spirit of IT, come, have fun, don't spend truck loads of cash just to be competitive. I congratulate you for not having the mentality of "keeping up with the Jonessesses".
Perhaps I was a bit too hasty in jumping in. However I know myself and if I had taken the route of build a little at a time, I don't think I would have gotten any further. I'm not wanting this to turn into a build vs. buy thread or a feel sorry for me thread (I'm quite happy to own a race prepared car), but the folks that say buy already built have probably only built the car, not just bought one. There are pros and cons to both. Personally I don't see there is much difference. Since my main goal is to get some seat time, safely and legally, perhaps merely putting in a 4pt. rollbar would have sufficed.
What if I stuffed the car?... AAA to the rescue. Again, just thinking out loud here, perhaps IF folks drove their IT cars to and from the track their would be a little less inclination for metal to metal contact.
Again, I'll probably feel much better about the whole thing once I'm on a track.
(blue or red pill... let see how deep this hole really goes)
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Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (Knestis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I talked to Walt P. about a header and he made the observation that, as long as i have a cat, the header is kind of pointless. I'm not sure that this is absolutely true but the point is valid.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How valid is that point? I imagine you could find a replacement cat that would flow enough to make a header worthwhile.
How valid is that point? I imagine you could find a replacement cat that would flow enough to make a header worthwhile.
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From: Arlington, VA
just threw this together with info from the top of my head, feel free to correct anything i've said.
-EG Civic - you'd be in "unlimited" classes, but the car is a great DD and serves well on the track and autox courses as well. To be ubercompetitive you'll need to dump a bit more money and wrench time...
-EF Civic - same as above, but you don't need to swap motors! car is a little uglier...
-CRX - you pretty much lose functionality of backseats in this one, but like the EF it doesn't need a swap.
-E36 M3 - i'm looking at 'em for DD duties... awesome car, the ultimate driving machine for sure. cost is a significant factor when you begin tracking.
-miata - if you can fit, and you don't mind not having rear seats... DO IT
others to consider that i don't have much insight on (read: i'm at work and need to get some work done):
-protege
-e30
-ep bus
-non-vtec integra (da or dc)
fwiw, i have an eg and aside from having to pump a fair amount of money in to it to be competitive, i couldn't be happier. it has gotten me through several moves, it gets 30-40mpg, i think it looks good, and the aftermarket is probably better for it than any other import car... EVER
-EG Civic - you'd be in "unlimited" classes, but the car is a great DD and serves well on the track and autox courses as well. To be ubercompetitive you'll need to dump a bit more money and wrench time...
-EF Civic - same as above, but you don't need to swap motors! car is a little uglier...
-CRX - you pretty much lose functionality of backseats in this one, but like the EF it doesn't need a swap.
-E36 M3 - i'm looking at 'em for DD duties... awesome car, the ultimate driving machine for sure. cost is a significant factor when you begin tracking.
-miata - if you can fit, and you don't mind not having rear seats... DO IT
others to consider that i don't have much insight on (read: i'm at work and need to get some work done):
-protege
-e30
-ep bus
-non-vtec integra (da or dc)
fwiw, i have an eg and aside from having to pump a fair amount of money in to it to be competitive, i couldn't be happier. it has gotten me through several moves, it gets 30-40mpg, i think it looks good, and the aftermarket is probably better for it than any other import car... EVER
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From: McLean, VA, USA
Re: (MichaelJComputer)
On the Protege: it baffles me how what's possibly the sweetest-handling car in its class out of the box has never been a serious contender in almost any level of racing. Could be a good local-level H Stock or STS car, and might be fun at HPDEs, but don't expect to do EVERYTHING with one. The 1st gen Protege LX and its twin the Escort GT is a nice cheap little runabout. The 3rd gen Proteges like mine would be excellent all-around cars if they had wider wheels. Oh well, thanks to the federalized Elise, which uses the same size tires in front, there's finally an R-compound available for the 16x6" wheel Protege, the Yokohama A048. But at about the same cost as Hoosiers in similar sizes, I doubt they grip as well.
If I had to own only one car, right now it would be only a question of budget. Remember GRM's "best cars for $5000, 10000, 15000" issue? Mine goes something like:
$5000: S13 240SX, NA Miata, 1g Neon ACR
$10000: S14 240SX, NB Miata, GC8 Impreza RS
$20000: E36 M3, SRT-4, IS300, WRX
$30000: Mazdaspeed Miata, Lancer Evolution
If your main goal is seat time, then why did you make the leap to racing wheel to wheel? If that came off as condescending, I didn't mean it that way. After my first couple HPDEs I sat down with myself and said "self, I know racing looks really awesome, but I know I don't have the level of commitment to make it worthwhile and rewarding." My goal is seat time, too - and while I'd love to do it with timed laps and trophies, I realized I'd get a lot more enjoyment out of a fun street-legal car. I'm no street racer, but everything I've done with my 240SXs has made the car more fun every moment I'm in it, not just when I'm competing or lapping. In the end, it'll still be a legal STS autocrosser, too, so, I got that goin' for me.
If I had to own only one car, right now it would be only a question of budget. Remember GRM's "best cars for $5000, 10000, 15000" issue? Mine goes something like:
$5000: S13 240SX, NA Miata, 1g Neon ACR
$10000: S14 240SX, NB Miata, GC8 Impreza RS
$20000: E36 M3, SRT-4, IS300, WRX
$30000: Mazdaspeed Miata, Lancer Evolution
If your main goal is seat time, then why did you make the leap to racing wheel to wheel? If that came off as condescending, I didn't mean it that way. After my first couple HPDEs I sat down with myself and said "self, I know racing looks really awesome, but I know I don't have the level of commitment to make it worthwhile and rewarding." My goal is seat time, too - and while I'd love to do it with timed laps and trophies, I realized I'd get a lot more enjoyment out of a fun street-legal car. I'm no street racer, but everything I've done with my 240SXs has made the car more fun every moment I'm in it, not just when I'm competing or lapping. In the end, it'll still be a legal STS autocrosser, too, so, I got that goin' for me.
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From: richmond, va, 23233
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (emwavey)
when i got my current race car and had to wait too long for the first weekend, i dragged (on my cheap $750 tow dolly) the race car behind my wife's daily driver (ie. cheap towing for only $750) to an autocross so I could get some feel for the car and get rid of the urge to run it while waiting for that first race weekend..
i have thought of doing that again when there is a big gap in the race schedule (or fundage for racing) just haven't had time w/in my real life to even do that
your post does illustrate the point of how crazy it is to overspend on race car.....i race on used tires, use cheap brake pads and still have fun out there even if i am not the fastest car out there.....besides, wait for those days it rains when it tends to even everone out and you can beat the guy beside you who spent more on his wheels and tires then you did on your race car and tow dolly ;-)
or outqualify 3 or 4 factory five cobras at VIR-N in the rain 
stephen "my race car and trailer (tow dolly ;-) cost less than 4 sets of hoosiers" Harper
Modified by Dented Rx7 at 2:47 AM 9/2/2004
i have thought of doing that again when there is a big gap in the race schedule (or fundage for racing) just haven't had time w/in my real life to even do that
your post does illustrate the point of how crazy it is to overspend on race car.....i race on used tires, use cheap brake pads and still have fun out there even if i am not the fastest car out there.....besides, wait for those days it rains when it tends to even everone out and you can beat the guy beside you who spent more on his wheels and tires then you did on your race car and tow dolly ;-)
or outqualify 3 or 4 factory five cobras at VIR-N in the rain stephen "my race car and trailer (tow dolly ;-) cost less than 4 sets of hoosiers" Harper
Modified by Dented Rx7 at 2:47 AM 9/2/2004
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From: I started it
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (emwavey)
Interesting topic, I'm going through a similar thing right now (it's part of the reason the H3 car is for sale...I never use it).
I've got this E30 325 with a good solid shell and pretty much everything works. But it's got an eta motor, and that ain't no good, so I'd have to do a swap and that would be awful.
The Miatas are nice except...well, they're just so bloody slow. I like the horsepower the GS-R has and the next "track car" will have the same or more. Going fast is fun. I guess the same could be said of a CRX Si.
Thought about a Mustang Cobra, but apparently you have to throw about $5000 to make them turn, and thats getting pretty expensive.
I keep coming back to E36 M3. I've been codriving a mild BSP car at some events this year and holy crap is that a lot of fun. Power and brakes for days, no ill behaviour, beautiful sounds from that straight six. Chip it, put a Turner club racing suspension on it, and a rollbar, fix anything broken, and go have a good time. That, to me, is probably the ideal toy car.
I've got this E30 325 with a good solid shell and pretty much everything works. But it's got an eta motor, and that ain't no good, so I'd have to do a swap and that would be awful.
The Miatas are nice except...well, they're just so bloody slow. I like the horsepower the GS-R has and the next "track car" will have the same or more. Going fast is fun. I guess the same could be said of a CRX Si.
Thought about a Mustang Cobra, but apparently you have to throw about $5000 to make them turn, and thats getting pretty expensive.
I keep coming back to E36 M3. I've been codriving a mild BSP car at some events this year and holy crap is that a lot of fun. Power and brakes for days, no ill behaviour, beautiful sounds from that straight six. Chip it, put a Turner club racing suspension on it, and a rollbar, fix anything broken, and go have a good time. That, to me, is probably the ideal toy car.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 584
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From: Now employed again in Roanoke, VA
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (emwavey)
If you don't want to sink tons of $$$ into the all-in-one car, Miatas and CRXs come to mind for me. The miata is SO much fun to drive and easy to get 90% out of it with only a little talent. You can buy the spec suspension package from Mazda Comp. for a total bargain. Throw on some good pads and what a fun all around car. The only drawback is that it is kind of slow on track (but still FUN).
My CRX has been a multi-purpose car the entire six years I have owned it. I bought it originally to have a fun, inexpensive street car and to get into autocross with. I also found out along the way that it makes a good track car as well, with only a few well chosen upgrades. With that huge space in the back you've got room for tires (even short and fat 13s) tools, chairs, gear, etc. for the weekend. It is not as easy to drive as an equally prepared Miata at the limit but it is utimately quicker. I tow it now, but it is still streetable.
If I wanted to spend a little more $$$ for the all-in-one machine I think it would have to be an ITR. Nice looking and driving car for the street and you can practically throw it on track as is and ROLL. Of course leaving it stock would be boring for me...I like to tinker.
One last nod I will give is for the Nissan NX2000. A good friend of mine has one of these set up for track use and he drives it to and from events. This car is fast and it drives very nice the way he has it set up. It is nearly as quick as the CRX in the corners, but he just rolls me on the straights even if I get more exit speed. The motor is a SR20 with quite a few miles on it with a header and intake. He recently put cams in it, but it was fast even before that. These cars can be had pretty cheap if you can find one.
Just my $.02
My CRX has been a multi-purpose car the entire six years I have owned it. I bought it originally to have a fun, inexpensive street car and to get into autocross with. I also found out along the way that it makes a good track car as well, with only a few well chosen upgrades. With that huge space in the back you've got room for tires (even short and fat 13s) tools, chairs, gear, etc. for the weekend. It is not as easy to drive as an equally prepared Miata at the limit but it is utimately quicker. I tow it now, but it is still streetable.
If I wanted to spend a little more $$$ for the all-in-one machine I think it would have to be an ITR. Nice looking and driving car for the street and you can practically throw it on track as is and ROLL. Of course leaving it stock would be boring for me...I like to tinker.
One last nod I will give is for the Nissan NX2000. A good friend of mine has one of these set up for track use and he drives it to and from events. This car is fast and it drives very nice the way he has it set up. It is nearly as quick as the CRX in the corners, but he just rolls me on the straights even if I get more exit speed. The motor is a SR20 with quite a few miles on it with a header and intake. He recently put cams in it, but it was fast even before that. These cars can be had pretty cheap if you can find one.
Just my $.02
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Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (Brian*Blue95M3)
If someone took a K20A2 from an RSX and bolted it to the rear wheels of CRX with a working A/C... well theyd have the next car I'm going to buy... Im skipping all the in-between steps and going straight an Elise when the EP-Bus is paid off.
Im a just-one-pair-of-shoes-for-any-occasion guy, myself.
Im a just-one-pair-of-shoes-for-any-occasion guy, myself.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,355
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From: Hammonton, NJ
Re: (AKADriver)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...If your main goal is seat time, then why did you make the leap to racing wheel to wheel? If that came off as condescending, I didn't mean it that way. After my first couple HPDEs I sat down with myself and said "self, I know racing looks really awesome, but I know I don't have the level of commitment to make it worthwhile and rewarding." My goal is seat time, too - and while I'd love to do it with timed laps and trophies, I realized I'd get a lot more enjoyment out of a fun street-legal car. I'm no street racer, but everything I've done with my 240SXs has made the car more fun every moment I'm in it, not just when I'm competing or lapping. In the end, it'll still be a legal STS autocrosser, too, so, I got that goin' for me.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a fair question, and one that was mulled over for at least a year before jumping in.
SAFETY and MONEY were the biggest factors. Followed by encouragement from the wifey, and finding THE car I wanted in my price range.
Since I was becoming more bold on the track, I no longer felt comfortable lapping without a rollcage. Add a couple of grassy experiences, and you have someone who realizes mistakes can happen. I guess I could have gone with a rollbar, but eventually I knew I wanted to try club racing.
I went back and forth with the pros and cons of building vs. buying. Cost was a big factor, and build time and/or use of friend's help also played into the decision. I suppose if I built a car, I could have done so in steps. After figuring all the stupid little things that I would want to do, hood pins, wheel studs, strip interior - including removing the sound deadening material, etc., I knew these small things would take time. Time not on the track, but in the garage.
On paper the figures looked good, 6k for a car with a Quaiffe, new gear set, and final drive, all the small stuff was done, stock rebuilt engine, panasports... etc. If I were to buy this stuff, my budget would have gotten eaten up quickly. Of course I didn't need all this, but finanically it seemed sound to get all the bells and whistles already on a car.
I failed to factor in time-not-in-use, as to what the value of an IT car would/should be. Sorry if that's not clear. Let me use the shoe analogy. If you buy a pair of shoes for 50 bucks but only wear them once every two weeks, are they worth as much as shoes that you wear everyday?
Of course next Monday when I'm back in front of the computer again after having been to a track day, my perspective will be much "clearer".
So let's see what has been mentioned so far...
CRX
Civic
FF Cobra
Elise (US)
M3 E30/36
IS300
Miata
Jetta
Type R
NX2000 (personally I like the SE-R better... owned both)
$5000: S13 240SX, NA Miata, 1g Neon ACR
$10000: S14 240SX, NB Miata, GC8 Impreza RS
$20000: E36 M3, SRT-4, IS300, WRX
$30000: Mazdaspeed Miata, Lancer Evolution
(good stuff)
I'll add a couple more, and to me the important thing is that the car must be rear wheel drive and great in stock form.
2nd gen MR2 (NA or Turbo)
I'd add the 3rd gen RX-7, but from all I've read, reliability could be an issue.
Hey guys thanks for humoring me and adding your thoughts.
That's a fair question, and one that was mulled over for at least a year before jumping in.
SAFETY and MONEY were the biggest factors. Followed by encouragement from the wifey, and finding THE car I wanted in my price range.
Since I was becoming more bold on the track, I no longer felt comfortable lapping without a rollcage. Add a couple of grassy experiences, and you have someone who realizes mistakes can happen. I guess I could have gone with a rollbar, but eventually I knew I wanted to try club racing.
I went back and forth with the pros and cons of building vs. buying. Cost was a big factor, and build time and/or use of friend's help also played into the decision. I suppose if I built a car, I could have done so in steps. After figuring all the stupid little things that I would want to do, hood pins, wheel studs, strip interior - including removing the sound deadening material, etc., I knew these small things would take time. Time not on the track, but in the garage.
On paper the figures looked good, 6k for a car with a Quaiffe, new gear set, and final drive, all the small stuff was done, stock rebuilt engine, panasports... etc. If I were to buy this stuff, my budget would have gotten eaten up quickly. Of course I didn't need all this, but finanically it seemed sound to get all the bells and whistles already on a car.
I failed to factor in time-not-in-use, as to what the value of an IT car would/should be. Sorry if that's not clear. Let me use the shoe analogy. If you buy a pair of shoes for 50 bucks but only wear them once every two weeks, are they worth as much as shoes that you wear everyday?
Of course next Monday when I'm back in front of the computer again after having been to a track day, my perspective will be much "clearer".
So let's see what has been mentioned so far...
CRX
Civic
FF Cobra
Elise (US)
M3 E30/36
IS300
Miata
Jetta
Type R
NX2000 (personally I like the SE-R better... owned both)
$5000: S13 240SX, NA Miata, 1g Neon ACR
$10000: S14 240SX, NB Miata, GC8 Impreza RS
$20000: E36 M3, SRT-4, IS300, WRX
$30000: Mazdaspeed Miata, Lancer Evolution
(good stuff)
I'll add a couple more, and to me the important thing is that the car must be rear wheel drive and great in stock form.
2nd gen MR2 (NA or Turbo)
I'd add the 3rd gen RX-7, but from all I've read, reliability could be an issue.
Hey guys thanks for humoring me and adding your thoughts.
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: (emwavey)
Mazdaspeed Miatas are nowhere near $30k - MSRP is $25,000. Dealers in the DC area have tons sitting on the lots waiting to go to good homes - I'd wager you could get one near invoice ($23,000).
And you can get a plain jane base Miata for under $20k.
And you can get a plain jane base Miata for under $20k.
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 540
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From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (krshultz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interesting topic, I'm going through a similar thing right now (it's part of the reason the H3 car is for sale...I never use it).</TD></TR></TABLE>
A good compromise seems to be NASA HPDE3 ... Drive pretty fast, pass anywhere, but you don't have to spend massive amounts of money to race prep your kaa while making it pretty useless for the street.
Track driving has pretty much destroyed the concept of a street sports car for me. "hey it's pretty fast, I wonder what it would do on the track"
[Edit: sidecomment = Scott has pretty much proven it is possible to race, fast, cheap]
Modified by SpiceyRice at 10:20 AM 9/2/2004
A good compromise seems to be NASA HPDE3 ... Drive pretty fast, pass anywhere, but you don't have to spend massive amounts of money to race prep your kaa while making it pretty useless for the street.
Track driving has pretty much destroyed the concept of a street sports car for me. "hey it's pretty fast, I wonder what it would do on the track"
[Edit: sidecomment = Scott has pretty much proven it is possible to race, fast, cheap]
Modified by SpiceyRice at 10:20 AM 9/2/2004
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,861
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (emwavey)
Never try to study the go fast crack habit, just submit to it. 
The idle race car in the garage is no fun. Mine was like that for close to a year after a bought the SSB car. I don't have the budget to prep and run, I can only do one. So the car sat idle for almost a year while I built it up to H3 spec. It was no fun walking by the car in the morning everyday. Once the SEHC season is over next month, the car will sit idle again for 5-6 months for more prep.
You have to sit down and plan things out. I needed a min of a well setup suspension and an LSD for year one. I did that, then left the car as is and ran it this year on one set of Toyos and entry fees. I did the SCCA double comp school, one HPDE weekend, 3 SEHC weekends, and one SCCA weekend. I choose not to tow very far to keep gas cost down and to avoid taking time off work. 2 of the weekends were at Road Atlanta, which for me means sleep at home. All in all, I think I was able to do it very cheap. This year didn't put any kind of hurt on the family financials.
I mention the race car because I really don't think it is possible to have a part-time track car. This whole thing is a big downward spiral, a black hole from which no car can escape. Since you already have the IT car, work out what it would take to run it fro 4-6 weekends a year and work towards that goal.
The idle race car in the garage is no fun. Mine was like that for close to a year after a bought the SSB car. I don't have the budget to prep and run, I can only do one. So the car sat idle for almost a year while I built it up to H3 spec. It was no fun walking by the car in the morning everyday. Once the SEHC season is over next month, the car will sit idle again for 5-6 months for more prep.
You have to sit down and plan things out. I needed a min of a well setup suspension and an LSD for year one. I did that, then left the car as is and ran it this year on one set of Toyos and entry fees. I did the SCCA double comp school, one HPDE weekend, 3 SEHC weekends, and one SCCA weekend. I choose not to tow very far to keep gas cost down and to avoid taking time off work. 2 of the weekends were at Road Atlanta, which for me means sleep at home. All in all, I think I was able to do it very cheap. This year didn't put any kind of hurt on the family financials.
I mention the race car because I really don't think it is possible to have a part-time track car. This whole thing is a big downward spiral, a black hole from which no car can escape. Since you already have the IT car, work out what it would take to run it fro 4-6 weekends a year and work towards that goal.
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,223
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From: Somewhere, doing a rain dance.
Re: Playing with Cars? Just some random thoughts. (SpiceyRice)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpiceyRice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Track driving has pretty much destroyed the concept of a street sports car for me. "hey it's pretty fast, I wonder what it would do on the track"</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ain't that the truth. Everytime I see a nice car or read about it, my thought process goes like this:
"Man, that xx car is awesome, looks good, goes fast, heaven on earth."
"What I wouldn't give to drive it on track."
"Can you imagine how quickly it would go through brakes and tires?"
"Even if I stretch to afford the xx car itself, I can't afford to track it..."
"So, considering the costs to track it, what can I buy? Hmmm... divide by four, carry the one.... a RAZOR??!?!?"
*stomps off*
Track driving has pretty much destroyed the concept of a street sports car for me. "hey it's pretty fast, I wonder what it would do on the track"
</TD></TR></TABLE>Ain't that the truth. Everytime I see a nice car or read about it, my thought process goes like this:
"Man, that xx car is awesome, looks good, goes fast, heaven on earth."
"What I wouldn't give to drive it on track."
"Can you imagine how quickly it would go through brakes and tires?"
"Even if I stretch to afford the xx car itself, I can't afford to track it..."
"So, considering the costs to track it, what can I buy? Hmmm... divide by four, carry the one.... a RAZOR??!?!?"
*stomps off*
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,355
Likes: 0
From: Hammonton, NJ
Re: (thumpu77)
Welp... never made it to Pocono this weekend for the track day.
Long story short, my wife called me shortly after my last post hysterical, exclaiming that her water broke. That was Thursday, now I'm the proud papa of a new baby girl.
Perspective shift... I thought about the track day, my wife and I joked about it, and I haven't given it much thought between then and now.
Thanks for the idea about doing just a little at a time... buy some stuff this year, plan on a few schools or whatever the next. Good stuff. Add in a stroller, and a car seat and some premie diapers.
The feeling of being a new daddy is very similar to the feeling of having your first true love.
My next track day will most likely be in November.
Long story short, my wife called me shortly after my last post hysterical, exclaiming that her water broke. That was Thursday, now I'm the proud papa of a new baby girl.
Perspective shift... I thought about the track day, my wife and I joked about it, and I haven't given it much thought between then and now.
Thanks for the idea about doing just a little at a time... buy some stuff this year, plan on a few schools or whatever the next. Good stuff. Add in a stroller, and a car seat and some premie diapers.
The feeling of being a new daddy is very similar to the feeling of having your first true love.
My next track day will most likely be in November.
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,846
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From: I started it
Re: (emwavey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My next track day will most likely be in November. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Of 2005 Seriously, congrats. Like they say, more important things, right?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Of 2005
Seriously, congrats. Like they say, more important things, right?