ive searched and read the majority of the threads on this topic, but here is my situation. yesterday i competed at Tire Rack, which is a course and not a parking lot, with slaloms and what not, now the times i have oversteer the most was during a slaloms, so i dont think it was during de-acceleration. maybe im taking the wrong line? but in a slalom so i dont see how. i noticed other cars with "non autox type" tires go faster and not have the problems that im having.
my car set up is this, EG hatch, oem shocks, goldline springs. 19mm rear sway/tie bar, cusco strut bar in the rear.. i have azenis with about 5-6k miles on them, and the car is gutted behind the front seats as well as carpet and tar. im not running a front sway.
im going to replace the stocks and springs with Omni Power ITR sport coilovers(12k/10K) im looking for things that will help me and or eliminate this problem. this is my "rookie" season so i know im not the best driver but id like to gain as much knowledge as i can... next season i would like to do track days and i really dont want the car to do this at higher speeds!! thanxx for any advice and imput you have!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spock_rocker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">19mm rear sway/tie bar . . . not running a front sway</TD></TR></TABLE>
A car with that sort of setup will be very loose in transitions. However it will rotate better under steady-state cornering . . . AFAIK with my little suspension tuning experience, you have to compromise between the two (steady-state or transitions).

 

Not an EG, but my ST Speedtech-equipped 99 Si rotates/slides through the slaloms bigtime. Steady state cornering on the car is rock solid, though.

This kind of goes against what Targa250 said, but maybe I have a happy medium.

Keep in mind, there won't be stuff as "jerky" on a roadcourse. If you're throwing your car around like that, then something is wrong.

Just keep in mind, there's no room for chickening out mid corner. If you let off the throttle or brake, you WILL spin into oblivion. That's the tradeoff.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gamby &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not an EG, but my ST Speedtech-equipped 99 Si rotates/slides through the slaloms bigtime. Steady state cornering on the car is rock solid, though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you still have the stock front bar?

What you're saying is pretty much in agreement with what I am thinking; I think I am just not communicating it very well.

 

I have no idea what a goldline spring is, but oem shocks on an 11 year old car gives me some idea of the problem. Does the spring lower the car, is it stiffer than stock? How far off the bumpstops are the front and rear suspensions? Shocks that cannot handle the spring rate, plus the much higher effective spring rate in cornering caused by the rear bar, will allow the suspension to unload too quickly in transitions. In steady state, the spring and bar rates determine the balance. What is your alignment front and rear. If it is lowered and has not been re-aligned, there is probably a bunch of toe out on both ends.

 

You might also want to look at your driving. Even the most truffle sniffing car can be loose in the slalom with the wrong inputs. Breaking, lifting, turning, or coasting when the car is not in a steady state can induce oversteer.

 

tire rack autox are fun!!

most of the ones that ive been to there have had a bunch of **** on the track tho so that could be part of the reason. also its a fairly highspeed course because there really isnt much room to make tight corners... so that could be another factor, and the setup of the car would be the other.

even with a 19mm and no front swaybar you are gonna get crazy rotation. also what spring rates do you have?

i found at the last autox i went to softer, but equal f/r rates and oem shocks rotate better than H&R racesprings/agx and an lsd

 

um maybe slow down a bit

 

What are your toe settings?... Front and Rear?

If you don't know, take it to an alignment shop and find out. Toe out in the rear can play havioc... it might not be your driving, it could be a problem with you car.
IF good then see below:

If you are not comfortable with that much oversteer, there are two solutions, 1. get comfortable with it, embrace it and learn to drive with it. Oversteer can be your friend, and it can also bite you on the ***. or 2. put your front bar back on and learn to love the understeer in the long, slow turns.

Neutral is best, but when at the limits a slight amount of oversteer or understeer will most likely show itself.

Cliffnotes: check alignment settings, maybe put front bar back on, or get used to the oversteer.

Have fun young jedi.

 

as far as my alignment settings, i dunno. im not to worried about it considering i plan on putting in the coilovers asap too. then i will have it re-alligned and better specs to go off of. im not running a front sway just because the car didn't come with one. its a DX hatch. but if it will help me, im all for it. ive read mixed reviews of the front sway on EG hatchs. anymore imput is appreciated! thanxx

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eg1R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">um maybe slow down a bit </TD></TR></TABLE>

Or since its FWD.. he could just stay on the gas

On a serious note.. i don't think i, or anyone else here would recommend going with massive setup changes (such as coilovers) before you have the current setup figured out. It just tends to get you in deeper trouble, that's harder to dial in.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mohudsolo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no idea what a goldline spring is, but oem shocks on an 11 year old car gives me some idea of the problem. Does the spring lower the car, is it stiffer than stock? How far off the bumpstops are the front and rear suspensions? Shocks that cannot handle the spring rate, plus the much higher effective spring rate in cornering caused by the rear bar, will allow the suspension to unload too quickly in transitions. In steady state, the spring and bar rates determine the balance. What is your alignment front and rear. If it is lowered and has not been re-aligned, there is probably a bunch of toe out on both ends.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I Googled goldline springs - looks like there are two flavors: 1.5" drop and 2.25" drop (which they recommend). There is no mention of rates, so they are likely comfy for the street crowd. I'm guessing the rear shocks are bottoming - either on the bump stops or the shocks themselves. This will do violent things in quick transitions every time, like slaloms.

If the bumps are cut, check the strut rods for oil. If you are bottoming the shocks they should be leaking by now. That, of course, will make the problem even worse.

(My experience comes from the Skunk2 adjustable coils on stock struts. Been there, done that, now know better!)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do you still have the stock front bar?

What you're saying is pretty much in agreement with what I am thinking; I think I am just not communicating it very well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, still running the stock front bar.

Setup is koni yellow/neuspeed sport/ST speedtech combo. I love it.

 

well im getting ready to install the omni power coilovers hopefully this weekend. they are sitting in a box in my dining room! and i know all this is trial and error but i would like to become a good autoxer/driver... its just a problem i want to work through.

 

I'm not judging...

I did something pretty similar, soon after I started autocrossing I threw a set of springs at the car... a year later I bought a set of VictoRacers... started showing times similar to cars in CSP. Then I threw some Konis the next season.

FF one more year. I started instructing and I found that I had a really hard time driving a front-drive stock car on stock tires. Why? I never had much experience with them. A stock VW Jetta was the student's car. The thing pushed like an abortion protest stampeed.

What did I learn? I learned that the car's handling characteristic don't mean **** to determine whether or not you're good driver.

I'd say sell your car, or at least your coilovers, and buy a Yugo and drive that on stock tires for a while if you are more concerned about being a good driver, then you are about posting good times.

On the flip-side there is a benefit in learning to drive a tight, well balanced car too. Once the car is buttoned down, it responds quicker and as a result you have to too. A car that will "bite you on the ***" is a car you have to be "on top of". It forces you to interpret everything quicker. It forces you to be smoother.

A good car will improve your times, but means little to how good a driver you become.

Again, no judgement... I totally understand the appeal of making the car fast, and handle better. But if you're interested in becoming a faster driver, throw your money into seat time and instruction. You can't take your coilovers with you to other cars, but you can take what you've learned.

Just a couple pennies for you. Good luck and enjoy!

 

i understand your point, and maybe its neive for my to think but this is the only car i want to drive and learn on for now, cause well its the only car i have and will have for a long time. i put in as much seat time as i can afford. i just have alot of work to do. no big deal. it will all work out in due time. this season is more trial and error like i said before. the only problem is that i dont know many people that can walk me through this, im more of a hands on type of guy i guess.