So, what is the deal with these K20s??
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From: Baltic, CT, USA
So, what is the deal with these K20s??
Just like the topic says. Why does it seem that (nearly) all the H1 cars that are running a K20 are having reliability issues? Is it ragged edge tuning, poor assembly, too many RPMs, driver error, or a design flaw? Possibility of a combo platter of all? Is something being over looked in the swaps that are out there?
It seems all the track/race related failures are in older chassis, i.e. not the DC5/EP3.
I ask because I'd really like to have a K20A2 powered DC2 for a track toy and eventual H1 car but as they say, "to finish first, first you must finish."
It seems all the track/race related failures are in older chassis, i.e. not the DC5/EP3.
I ask because I'd really like to have a K20A2 powered DC2 for a track toy and eventual H1 car but as they say, "to finish first, first you must finish."
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: 909 all motor mafia,, CA, USA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (DBurke)
I'm going to give you the short version. When Kiwi gets back from mid-ohio he may be willing to elaborate, as might several other k-powered H1 drivers
Stock rods are not as good as we are accustomed to getting from Honda, first of all. It is also possible that there are some bearing issues but I don't think anyone is quite sure yet. Wrist pins have also been breaking.
I think a lot of people thought that these failures were due to the engines being revved too high (they make power well beyond the stock redline) but I guess the Hondata car had an engine failure this weekend and Derek was driving it very conservatively (as far as RPMs).
Every driver will deny it, but it is certainly possible that some of these engine failures are due to mis-shifting/accidental downshift. If that sounds strange go jump in an RSX Type S and run it through the gears, you will see what I mean. Gates are very close, and the effort to engage a gear is very light.
As for the cam seizure which killed the Special Projects K20 at mid-ohio this weekend, I can only speculate. That engine ran on an engine dyno at my friend's shop (he is the builder) for quite some time without experiencing any problems. Since the last K20 they had in that car blew up fairly spectacularly (rods/pistons/bearings/wrist pins smashed and splintered, hole in side of block) I was wondering if maybe there was some debris in the external oiling system (they run an external oil cooler and remote filter I believe) from the previous motor which was pumped into the new one, somehow obstructing the passages which carry oil to the head/cams. Again, speculation only.
Bottom line - unless you are willing to dump a lot of money into the motor, I would wait and let someone else do the developement first. Hondata and Special Projects both have quite a bit more resources than the average racer, and I am confident they will work these problems out eventually.
Stock rods are not as good as we are accustomed to getting from Honda, first of all. It is also possible that there are some bearing issues but I don't think anyone is quite sure yet. Wrist pins have also been breaking.
I think a lot of people thought that these failures were due to the engines being revved too high (they make power well beyond the stock redline) but I guess the Hondata car had an engine failure this weekend and Derek was driving it very conservatively (as far as RPMs).
Every driver will deny it, but it is certainly possible that some of these engine failures are due to mis-shifting/accidental downshift. If that sounds strange go jump in an RSX Type S and run it through the gears, you will see what I mean. Gates are very close, and the effort to engage a gear is very light.
As for the cam seizure which killed the Special Projects K20 at mid-ohio this weekend, I can only speculate. That engine ran on an engine dyno at my friend's shop (he is the builder) for quite some time without experiencing any problems. Since the last K20 they had in that car blew up fairly spectacularly (rods/pistons/bearings/wrist pins smashed and splintered, hole in side of block) I was wondering if maybe there was some debris in the external oiling system (they run an external oil cooler and remote filter I believe) from the previous motor which was pumped into the new one, somehow obstructing the passages which carry oil to the head/cams. Again, speculation only.
Bottom line - unless you are willing to dump a lot of money into the motor, I would wait and let someone else do the developement first. Hondata and Special Projects both have quite a bit more resources than the average racer, and I am confident they will work these problems out eventually.
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From: Orange, CALIFORNIA, USA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (909edge)
Yep!
Most of what you have said is absolutely correct. And the basic problem with the K-20 has been thrashed to death by me and others in previous HT threads...
Soft Rods!
However I think I can safely say our Team will probably NOT be continuing with our development programe on the K-20. .... Not For Honda Challenge anyway! While NASA's rediculous rule for stock bottom ends on the pretext of keeping down costs is in place, there is no point in us throwing any more money at the K-20 Engines! Look for some For Sale notices soon?
Our Lap times at Mid Ohio in the #7 car with the B20, 250 Lbs over weight, with a partial throttle missfire has proved to us that there is still plenty of life and HP to be found in the B Series.
Kiwi
Most of what you have said is absolutely correct. And the basic problem with the K-20 has been thrashed to death by me and others in previous HT threads...
Soft Rods!
However I think I can safely say our Team will probably NOT be continuing with our development programe on the K-20. .... Not For Honda Challenge anyway! While NASA's rediculous rule for stock bottom ends on the pretext of keeping down costs is in place, there is no point in us throwing any more money at the K-20 Engines! Look for some For Sale notices soon?
Our Lap times at Mid Ohio in the #7 car with the B20, 250 Lbs over weight, with a partial throttle missfire has proved to us that there is still plenty of life and HP to be found in the B Series.
Kiwi
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From: 909 all motor mafia,, CA, USA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (KIWI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">250 Lbs over weight
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know a good personal trainer I can give you his #
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know a good personal trainer I can give you his #
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From: Orange, CALIFORNIA, USA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (909edge)
Further to my previous post on the K-Motor...
The remote Oil Filter was replaced. All the Oil lines and the Oil Cooler were replaced. The engine was a complete JDM Unit. none of the original blown engine parts were used apart from the Oil pan. A new acusump was also installed on this latest re-build.
After rebuilding the whole top of the motor at Mid Ohio, The Oil pan was removed, cleaned, The motor was started, run, Oil flushed, New OIl and filter and run again. It still had the same Oil Pressure as before 70-80 psi and was getting oil to the top end, even when turning the engine over with the starter! Three pulls on the Dyno... and a substantial drop in HP after every pull convinced us that running the car would be a complete waste of time, and money! We took off all the cam caps and once again found the cams were starting to nip up! Just managed to save Derek's Toda's! or we would have been another $2000 down the Tube!
Kiwi
The remote Oil Filter was replaced. All the Oil lines and the Oil Cooler were replaced. The engine was a complete JDM Unit. none of the original blown engine parts were used apart from the Oil pan. A new acusump was also installed on this latest re-build.
After rebuilding the whole top of the motor at Mid Ohio, The Oil pan was removed, cleaned, The motor was started, run, Oil flushed, New OIl and filter and run again. It still had the same Oil Pressure as before 70-80 psi and was getting oil to the top end, even when turning the engine over with the starter! Three pulls on the Dyno... and a substantial drop in HP after every pull convinced us that running the car would be a complete waste of time, and money! We took off all the cam caps and once again found the cams were starting to nip up! Just managed to save Derek's Toda's! or we would have been another $2000 down the Tube!
Kiwi
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From: Torrance, CA, USA
The deal on K20As
It appears that there is a significant learning curve which we are going through now. After blowing up my engine on Friday someone asked me "So are you going to go back to a B?" to which I replied "I'm not giving up". The point is I believe that once we work out the oddities of the K it will make excellent power and be super reliable. Already it is superior to the B and I don't see any point going backwards.
There have been 3 K series failures on the West Coast this year. 1. Andy Hope lost his after a mis-shift. It appeared to have either tweaked the rod, broken the wrist pin or broken the piston, then run the rod bearing, then disassembled itself. In this case the engine ran about half a lap after the misshift. 2. Shawn Bota lost his K (at the same time) in a similar fashion. A misshift, then a drop in power, then repid self disassembly. In his case the rod bearing had run as well, and the wrist pin had split into many pieces lengthwise. I think he ran about 10 seconds after the mishift. 3. My engine of Friday expired in the same way, except that there was no over-rev or mis-shift. It had new pistons / wrist pins / rods / rod bolts and only had 20 dyno runs and 8 laps on it. I haven't had a change to look at the engine yet but a quick look showed me the piston had died and the rod bearing was spun. It's funny because my previous engine got over-revved about 4 times and was fine when I pulled it apart. 4. The K in the Special Projects car #65 was suffering from an oiling problem. This siezed the cams on Friday; I spent most of Saturday checking everything in the engine and putting a new valve train in, and while it showed oil pressure on the gauge it did not seem to have enough oil pressure in the engine. We had found a lot of metal in the engine (oil pan, filter and VTEC spool screen) so the cause could have been metal from the prevous blow up still being in the system. However after I cleaned everything out there was no more metal getting caught in the VTEC screen and my initial guess is that there was a restriction in the oil passages in the block. Varo has a surviving K but he does not rev it much (perhaps 8200 rpm) and I've never know him to misshift. I damaged my engine at Willow last month but that was my fault and nothing to do with the engine (ran out of water and overheated).
These first problem we found with the K20A was that the oil pan needs baffling otherwise a long corner will drop the oil pressure. This is easy enough to solve, but have good look at the Mugen oil pan before thinking about using it.
Going on the F20C engine it is a good idea long term to replace the retainers as these will probably fatigue in the same way as the S2000 engine. This is directly related to the amount of high rpm driving the engine has.
To prevent mis-shifting you need to make sure the reverse lock out is working. Then make sure the shifter is all working as it should when running. I slotted the holes on the reverse lockout solenoid to adjust it which made a big difference going from 4th to 5th. Don't use any sort of short shifter kit. You can also pull the selector mechanism out of the tranmission and make sure the bevels on the selector are not too rounded off. Not a problem so far in my transmissions. Make sure the clutch has the right amount of throw out (too much or too little is bad). When the clutch gets hot you need more pedal travel than the manufacturers say you do.
With oil coolers both Special Projects and myself have found that the spin on adapters for the oil cooler need porting otherwise they restrict oil flow into the engine. It's to do with the offset input pipe fitting nearly butting onto steel threaded center oil passage into the engine.
There is a weakness with the K top end where the cam journals get very little oil. The cams are oiled with low pressure oil from the VTEC spool valve. Oil flows into cap #1, then into the rocker shafts. In the lower #2 cap there are two passageways from the rocker shafts to the cam journals, with metal restrictors in them. From there the oil flows through the cams to every other cam bearing surface. This has been a problem if you go to more valve spring tension, as the cam gets so little oil it will eventually score / gall / seize. I've had no problems so far with the Toda cams / valve springs on the stock setup but I would say that is at the limit. The solution probably will be to drill holes from the cam journals to the rocker shafts. Long term I might feed the cam high pressure oil rather than rely on low pressure oil from from the VTEC spool. Note: never disable the VTEC by removing or blanking off the VTEC spool valve. Your cams will seize. An inactive VTEC spool is OK, but even then at high rpm it will supply oil at say 10 psi rather than 60-70 psi you would normally get.
So what's the cause? I am very sure that my engine was assembled correctly and tuned correctly. At the moment it appears that the piston or wrist pin breaks at high rpm. Kinda hard to do anything about that given the current HC rules. While I did not over-rev my engine on Friday, the final drive I had for the mid ohio circuit was too low and the average engine rpm was very high. That should not make any difference given Hondas engine testing proceedure (100 hours at redline) but who knows.
So what do we do? For the moment the best thing to do is to limit the engine to 8600 or 8800 rpm, baffle the oil pan and make sure the shifter / transmission is working correctly. Build the exhaust for mid range. Use gearing which keeps the shift points in the right part of the track. If you get a sudden power loss, especially after a mis-shift, switch the engine off. Pull the oil pan and check the rods for a dark colour which would indicate a spun rod bearing.
Modified by rubber chicken at 5:32 PM 8/24/2004
There have been 3 K series failures on the West Coast this year. 1. Andy Hope lost his after a mis-shift. It appeared to have either tweaked the rod, broken the wrist pin or broken the piston, then run the rod bearing, then disassembled itself. In this case the engine ran about half a lap after the misshift. 2. Shawn Bota lost his K (at the same time) in a similar fashion. A misshift, then a drop in power, then repid self disassembly. In his case the rod bearing had run as well, and the wrist pin had split into many pieces lengthwise. I think he ran about 10 seconds after the mishift. 3. My engine of Friday expired in the same way, except that there was no over-rev or mis-shift. It had new pistons / wrist pins / rods / rod bolts and only had 20 dyno runs and 8 laps on it. I haven't had a change to look at the engine yet but a quick look showed me the piston had died and the rod bearing was spun. It's funny because my previous engine got over-revved about 4 times and was fine when I pulled it apart. 4. The K in the Special Projects car #65 was suffering from an oiling problem. This siezed the cams on Friday; I spent most of Saturday checking everything in the engine and putting a new valve train in, and while it showed oil pressure on the gauge it did not seem to have enough oil pressure in the engine. We had found a lot of metal in the engine (oil pan, filter and VTEC spool screen) so the cause could have been metal from the prevous blow up still being in the system. However after I cleaned everything out there was no more metal getting caught in the VTEC screen and my initial guess is that there was a restriction in the oil passages in the block. Varo has a surviving K but he does not rev it much (perhaps 8200 rpm) and I've never know him to misshift. I damaged my engine at Willow last month but that was my fault and nothing to do with the engine (ran out of water and overheated).
These first problem we found with the K20A was that the oil pan needs baffling otherwise a long corner will drop the oil pressure. This is easy enough to solve, but have good look at the Mugen oil pan before thinking about using it.
Going on the F20C engine it is a good idea long term to replace the retainers as these will probably fatigue in the same way as the S2000 engine. This is directly related to the amount of high rpm driving the engine has.
To prevent mis-shifting you need to make sure the reverse lock out is working. Then make sure the shifter is all working as it should when running. I slotted the holes on the reverse lockout solenoid to adjust it which made a big difference going from 4th to 5th. Don't use any sort of short shifter kit. You can also pull the selector mechanism out of the tranmission and make sure the bevels on the selector are not too rounded off. Not a problem so far in my transmissions. Make sure the clutch has the right amount of throw out (too much or too little is bad). When the clutch gets hot you need more pedal travel than the manufacturers say you do.
With oil coolers both Special Projects and myself have found that the spin on adapters for the oil cooler need porting otherwise they restrict oil flow into the engine. It's to do with the offset input pipe fitting nearly butting onto steel threaded center oil passage into the engine.
There is a weakness with the K top end where the cam journals get very little oil. The cams are oiled with low pressure oil from the VTEC spool valve. Oil flows into cap #1, then into the rocker shafts. In the lower #2 cap there are two passageways from the rocker shafts to the cam journals, with metal restrictors in them. From there the oil flows through the cams to every other cam bearing surface. This has been a problem if you go to more valve spring tension, as the cam gets so little oil it will eventually score / gall / seize. I've had no problems so far with the Toda cams / valve springs on the stock setup but I would say that is at the limit. The solution probably will be to drill holes from the cam journals to the rocker shafts. Long term I might feed the cam high pressure oil rather than rely on low pressure oil from from the VTEC spool. Note: never disable the VTEC by removing or blanking off the VTEC spool valve. Your cams will seize. An inactive VTEC spool is OK, but even then at high rpm it will supply oil at say 10 psi rather than 60-70 psi you would normally get.
So what's the cause? I am very sure that my engine was assembled correctly and tuned correctly. At the moment it appears that the piston or wrist pin breaks at high rpm. Kinda hard to do anything about that given the current HC rules. While I did not over-rev my engine on Friday, the final drive I had for the mid ohio circuit was too low and the average engine rpm was very high. That should not make any difference given Hondas engine testing proceedure (100 hours at redline) but who knows.
So what do we do? For the moment the best thing to do is to limit the engine to 8600 or 8800 rpm, baffle the oil pan and make sure the shifter / transmission is working correctly. Build the exhaust for mid range. Use gearing which keeps the shift points in the right part of the track. If you get a sudden power loss, especially after a mis-shift, switch the engine off. Pull the oil pan and check the rods for a dark colour which would indicate a spun rod bearing.
Modified by rubber chicken at 5:32 PM 8/24/2004
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: 909 all motor mafia,, CA, USA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (JDM EK9)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM EK9 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why didnt all the k20s at the 25 hour enduro blow up?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good question... what teams/cars ran K20s in that race? I'd like to talk to them.
Good question... what teams/cars ran K20s in that race? I'd like to talk to them.
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From: Elkton, MD, 21921
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (909edge)
hi guys.
it was great meeting you at Mid Ohio, and thanks for all the tips/insights you gave me when you came over to talk at my trailer while i was twiddling with my car!
my K is completely stock right now, with the stock Type S cams. i was mostly shifting around 7800 to 8000 rpm, with a few times bumping into the 8200 limiter. keeping it at 8200 or below, i hope to keep the rods happy!
i am going to raise my idle from 800 to 1200 as you suggested to keep the cams alive longer when idling....
the reverse lockout is a MUST. mine doesn't have it, and i bet i wasted almost a full second every time i shifted up to 5th, just being sure it was in and in the right gear. i will fix that before the next race. this is an instance of almost certain engine damage if it is not working, i think...
observation: stock, this motor is awesome. i don't think i am going to "hop" it up much. it will be powerful enough for me as is....
thanx again for the help!
it was great meeting you at Mid Ohio, and thanks for all the tips/insights you gave me when you came over to talk at my trailer while i was twiddling with my car!
my K is completely stock right now, with the stock Type S cams. i was mostly shifting around 7800 to 8000 rpm, with a few times bumping into the 8200 limiter. keeping it at 8200 or below, i hope to keep the rods happy!
i am going to raise my idle from 800 to 1200 as you suggested to keep the cams alive longer when idling....
the reverse lockout is a MUST. mine doesn't have it, and i bet i wasted almost a full second every time i shifted up to 5th, just being sure it was in and in the right gear. i will fix that before the next race. this is an instance of almost certain engine damage if it is not working, i think...
observation: stock, this motor is awesome. i don't think i am going to "hop" it up much. it will be powerful enough for me as is....
thanx again for the help!
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Baltic, CT, USA
Re: The deal on K20As (rubber chicken)
Wow. Thanks for the intimate details. I am one that is always a fan of the new powering the old. I had hoped to assemble a stock Type S swap and drive it.
Thanks again, keep us posted on the developments.
Thanks again, keep us posted on the developments.
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Quebec, Canada
Re: The deal on K20As (DBurke)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DBurke »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thanks again, keep us posted on the developments. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks again, keep us posted on the developments.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: .com, CA
Re: The deal on K20As (DBurke)
As far as I know of the k run by Esses / Mugen was a king built motor not restricted by h1 rules
the spoon team ran a kas well also not restricted by the rules
both motors were built meticulously and going through either catalog should help, but it's enough to say nearly any drivetrain part from the rods to the transmission was deburred and polished and the motor was kept near stock redline - something H1 motors are not
Also the Esses motor comes from the same background from Kings world challenge race car and I've heard it's rediculously custom - though would not like to spoil anybodies secret here
Looking at cars like the skunk2 civic and even service histories for K series cars still untouched that there is weakness in the new engine
I hate to say it but it's possible Honda booby trapped these engine intentionally to put an end to rediculous warranty claims on new cars driven poorly
either way if Nasa wants to keep the field filled with new cars and new faces possitively addressing this issue by making excpetions necessary to keep these programs going - possibly by restricting the displacment to 2.0L with the acception of the new TSX ect.
the spoon team ran a kas well also not restricted by the rules
both motors were built meticulously and going through either catalog should help, but it's enough to say nearly any drivetrain part from the rods to the transmission was deburred and polished and the motor was kept near stock redline - something H1 motors are not
Also the Esses motor comes from the same background from Kings world challenge race car and I've heard it's rediculously custom - though would not like to spoil anybodies secret here
Looking at cars like the skunk2 civic and even service histories for K series cars still untouched that there is weakness in the new engine
I hate to say it but it's possible Honda booby trapped these engine intentionally to put an end to rediculous warranty claims on new cars driven poorly
either way if Nasa wants to keep the field filled with new cars and new faces possitively addressing this issue by making excpetions necessary to keep these programs going - possibly by restricting the displacment to 2.0L with the acception of the new TSX ect.
I really don't know
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: In the boonies
Re: The deal on K20As (FF lotus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF lotus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As far as I know of the k run by Esses / Mugen was a king built motor not restricted by h1 rules
Also the Esses motor comes from the same background from Kings world challenge race car and I've heard it's rediculously custom - though would not like to spoil anybodies secret here
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If this was true id hope that their car would run alot faster than the lap times they were running
back on topic:
I wonder if people in Japan are experiencing the same problems as the people in WCHC are facing. Don't japanese racing sanctions keep the motors relatively OEM for racing?
Also the Esses motor comes from the same background from Kings world challenge race car and I've heard it's rediculously custom - though would not like to spoil anybodies secret here
.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If this was true id hope that their car would run alot faster than the lap times they were running
back on topic:
I wonder if people in Japan are experiencing the same problems as the people in WCHC are facing. Don't japanese racing sanctions keep the motors relatively OEM for racing?
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From: cali
Re: The deal on K20As (JDM EK9)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM EK9 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If this was true id hope that their car would run alot faster than the lap times they were running
</TD></TR></TABLE>
in endurance racing 98% of the race is making it to the end.
there not about setting lap records.
If this was true id hope that their car would run alot faster than the lap times they were running
</TD></TR></TABLE>
in endurance racing 98% of the race is making it to the end.
there not about setting lap records.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Torrance, CA, USA
Re: The deal on K20As (FF lotus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FF lotus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the motor was kept near stock redline - something H1 motors are not</TD></TR></TABLE>
I wouldn't think revving my engine 200 - 300 rpm over the factory rev limit is excessive. Obviously my engine disagrees.
K20A2 factory rev limiter is 8100 and the K20A with same internals is 8600 rpm The is similar to the B16A/B18C (8100 rpm) and B18C5 or B18C spec R (8600 rpm) With the B Honda upgraded the internals going from 8100 rpm to 8600 rpm but they did not with the K A mistake perhaps?
The funny thing is that a B18C or B18 LS engine will rev to 9500 rpm on stock rods / CTR pistons. The LS rod is weeny compared to the K and the B stroke is longer than the K (86 vs 87.2 or 89 mm) so the rods are doing more work.
I don't think we can draw any conclusions from WC cars as they usually have after market pistons & rods. Plus the engines are rev limited (currently 9200 rpm for the K20A).
I wouldn't think revving my engine 200 - 300 rpm over the factory rev limit is excessive. Obviously my engine disagrees.
K20A2 factory rev limiter is 8100 and the K20A with same internals is 8600 rpm The is similar to the B16A/B18C (8100 rpm) and B18C5 or B18C spec R (8600 rpm) With the B Honda upgraded the internals going from 8100 rpm to 8600 rpm but they did not with the K A mistake perhaps?
The funny thing is that a B18C or B18 LS engine will rev to 9500 rpm on stock rods / CTR pistons. The LS rod is weeny compared to the K and the B stroke is longer than the K (86 vs 87.2 or 89 mm) so the rods are doing more work.
I don't think we can draw any conclusions from WC cars as they usually have after market pistons & rods. Plus the engines are rev limited (currently 9200 rpm for the K20A).
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From: phoenix, az, usa
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (DBurke)
Damn that was very informative bro. I have a RSX type S and didnt know people were taking the engine that high. When all these mis-hapes occured what was your guys redline set to? 7900 is the type S red line and fuel cut off engaged at 8200. So were you increaseing the redline with hondata and using upgraded cams or were you running stock motors?
As for the comment on the tranny being very easy to mis-shift I have to agree. Tranny gets some time to get used to but you need to be cautious.
As for the comment on the tranny being very easy to mis-shift I have to agree. Tranny gets some time to get used to but you need to be cautious.
I really don't know
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,127
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From: In the boonies
Re: The deal on K20As (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
in endurance racing 98% of the race is making it to the end.
there not about setting lap records.</TD></TR></TABLE>
edited: slammed_93_hatch, setting lap records or not, I think that their car should run faster lap times than it did. Given FF lotus knows what he is talking about, and it has a world challenge mugen built motor like the one seen in the mugen RSX. Running faster lap times does not imply anything about setting lap records.
FWIW's they have their classes lap record at Thunderhill.
speaking of the mugen pan, did you find out what that little box in the corner was for?
in endurance racing 98% of the race is making it to the end.
there not about setting lap records.</TD></TR></TABLE>
edited: slammed_93_hatch, setting lap records or not, I think that their car should run faster lap times than it did. Given FF lotus knows what he is talking about, and it has a world challenge mugen built motor like the one seen in the mugen RSX. Running faster lap times does not imply anything about setting lap records.
FWIW's they have their classes lap record at Thunderhill.
speaking of the mugen pan, did you find out what that little box in the corner was for?
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
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Re: The deal on K20As (rubber chicken)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rubber chicken »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1. Andy Hope lost his after a mis-shift.
2. Shawn Bota lost his K (at the same time) in a similar fashion. A misshift, then a drop in power, then repid self disassembly.
3. My engine of Friday expired in the same way, except that there was no over-rev or mis-shift.</TD></TR></TABLE>
do you guys know which K series Varo is running?
i have yet to hear about any motor issues with his setup.
1. Andy Hope lost his after a mis-shift.
2. Shawn Bota lost his K (at the same time) in a similar fashion. A misshift, then a drop in power, then repid self disassembly.
3. My engine of Friday expired in the same way, except that there was no over-rev or mis-shift.</TD></TR></TABLE>
do you guys know which K series Varo is running?
i have yet to hear about any motor issues with his setup.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 1
From: 909 all motor mafia,, CA, USA
Re: The deal on K20As (JDM EK9)
This is maybe a little OT but does anyone know what kind of hp #s these "World Challenge" motors are making? No one really has any super big cams for Ks out as far as I know. I think on K20A stock compression (11.5 IIRC) with the Todas, good I/H/E and Hondata some people are making about 240+. So I would think a fully built race motor would make close to 300. These are wheel #s.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 30,826
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: The deal on K20As (909edge)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 909edge »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think on K20A stock compression (11.5 IIRC) with the Todas, good I/H/E and Hondata some people are making about 240+. So I would think a fully built race motor would make close to 300. These are wheel #s.</TD></TR></TABLE>
http://todaracing.com/products....html
http://todaracing.com/products....html
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,630
Likes: 1
From: Charleston, SC, USA
Re: The deal on K20As (909edge)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 909edge »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This is maybe a little OT but does anyone know what kind of hp #s these "World Challenge" motors are making? No one really has any super big cams for Ks out as far as I know. I think on K20A stock compression (11.5 IIRC) with the Todas, good I/H/E and Hondata some people are making about 240+. So I would think a fully built race motor would make close to 300. These are wheel #s.</TD></TR></TABLE>
World Challenge cars are putting down about 240hp.. 250 tops.. at least they were at the beginning of the season..
World Challenge cars are putting down about 240hp.. 250 tops.. at least they were at the beginning of the season..
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,021
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From: Oakton, VA
Re: So, what is the deal with these K20s?? (KIWI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While NASA's rediculous rule for stock bottom ends on the pretext of keeping down costs is in place, there is no point in us throwing any more money at the K-20 Engines!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't this rule made by H-C not NASA?
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't this rule made by H-C not NASA?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,528
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From: Wilmington, NC, USFinA
Re: The deal on K20As (rubber chicken)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rubber chicken »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. That should not make any difference given Hondas engine testing proceedure (100 hours at redline) but who knows.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is an interesting statement.....not to get OT here but that is amazing...are you saying HONDA runs an engine for 100 hours at redline....non stop??? truly amazing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is an interesting statement.....not to get OT here but that is amazing...are you saying HONDA runs an engine for 100 hours at redline....non stop??? truly amazing.