I realize this is a public forum and I don't want to rehash what's been posted elsewhere about the first lap incident that put Kevin, Ed and I into the tirewall. I didn't see what precipitated the event, but when I got to the top of Madness with Jon Marhefka in front I suddenly saw Ed and Kevin's cars in the middle of the track and had no where to go. It was either hit the back of Ed's car at speed or the tire wall. I choose the tirewall but still clipped the back of Ed's car pretty hard (broke my front suspension, steering rack, and other bits.)

This post is not to debate what occured to create the accident (though you can if you want). I was furious that race control did not immediately throw a full course double yellow.

We were at the top of the hill blocking half the track with three cars piled up. There is no runoff room, no grass, no dirt, just a wall with tires. WE WERE ON THE TRACK !

I was frantically waving at the corner workers to ask for a double yellow because I knew what would happen. As I looked out the side of the car I saw the H1 cars screaming down the back straight toward Madness.

According to Ian Carpenter's girlfriend who was sitting near us, even the announcer seemed stunned that there was no double yellow and siad something over the loudspeaker to the effect "This looks like a very dangerous situation developing..."

Well it was a very dangerous situation because practiucally no one slowed down and from what I have been told (I couldn't see out the back of my car due to the angle it went into the tirewall) I was nearly hit by an H1 car that tried to race to the yellow (and possibly even pass) which proceeded to lock up its tires and crash into the tire wall just inches from my car.

I talked with race control and Lawrence and was given a multitude of stories and information. In the end it was decided that given the short period of time a double yellow couldn't have been instituted in time.

I am sorry but I don't buy that. I have particpitated in at least 25+ SCCA races and now a season of NASA and I have seen some pretty bad first lap incidents in Spec Racer Ford at various tracks. At Summit we usually have huge pile ups in turn 1. If it's bad enough we get a double yellow as quick as turn 5.

I am just looking for input from other's who were on the track or spectating for opinions. I still believe that a double yellow should have been thrown somewhere PRIOR to our three car pile up. There was ample opportunity to throw one on the back straight, or near the keyhole.

It's pretty scary when you are sitting in a car on the track and 35 race cars fly by at speed, and then one car nearly plows into the tree cars sitting on the track. In my case I couldn't see a whole lot, but Kevin was turned around in the opposite direction looking straight at the field approacching at speed. I can't imagine what was going through his mind seeing cars approaching us at speed headed for the tirewall and our cars.

In my opinion the flagging decisions and the decision by race control to throw a local yellow only on lap 2 nearly 2 minutes after the incident is not the correct call and put the three of us at incredible risk.

In the end everyone was ok and the cars can be fixed, but had that car hit the three of us racing for position under a local yellow it would be a differnet story.

Regards,

Jon

 

Can't wait to be racing with NASA-VA at summit..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can't wait to be racing with NASA-VA at summit..</TD></TR></TABLE>



I've never seen so much bent metal in one place before. Seems that during and after every race group they were pulling wrecked cars off the track.

 

All I can say is "Wow."

If "We didn't have enough time" is truly the excuse, then they need someone else calling the shots. It takes seconds to call for, and get, a double yellow, not minutes.
Good damned thing it wasn't a red flag situation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All I can say is "Wow."

If "We didn't have enough time" is truly the excuse, then they need someone else calling the shots. It takes seconds to call for, and get, a double yellow, not minutes.
Good damned thing it wasn't a red flag situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scott,

I was told the proceedure is as follows. The corner worker radios in the incident with a discription, then checks all drivers as to their condition and relays this to race control, then waits for any appropriate action that needs to be taken. This action must be handed down from race control.

The corner workers cannot throw a double yellow, only a waving yellow.

I was told by race control that given the information they received from the corner workers they felt the waving local yellow was appropriate.

Somewhere between the corner worker and race control communication broke down because I think everyone (involved in the incident or in the field) can agree that it was a very dangerous situation and warrented a double yellow.

So it wasn't completely an issue of time but also of poor communication.

Jon

 

I agree that it was very slow communication... I was right in front kevin when he got hit, but then i was also the guy who Kiwi (the right hand drive integra) attempted to pass and damn near killed you all, which was a full lap (~1:42 seconds) later..... He clearly didn't see the waving yellow... i slowed down a good bit when passing you guys and he went to go around but luckily went for the tirewall instead of your cars.

I could see that being pretty scary for you guys!

 

How do broke cars on track not get a full course yellow?

 

Little OT - how is a RHD car legal in HC?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ponyboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do broke cars on track not get a full course yellow? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Cars on course does not always call for a FCY.

Typically, cars/debris off course is a standing yellow. Stuff on the track, and particularly on the line, is a waving yellow. And lots of stuff on course is a FCY. Of course, race control and the corner workers make calls on the fly as they see fit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Scott,

I was told the proceedure is as follows. The corner worker radios in the incident with a discription, then checks all drivers as to their condition and relays this to race control, then waits for any appropriate action that needs to be taken. This action must be handed down from race control.

The corner workers cannot throw a double yellow, only a waving yellow.

I was told by race control that given the information they received from the corner workers they felt the waving local yellow was appropriate.

Somewhere between the corner worker and race control communication broke down because I think everyone (involved in the incident or in the field) can agree that it was a very dangerous situation and warrented a double yellow.

So it wasn't completely an issue of time but also of poor communication.

Jon
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats how it works. I think everybody has the same basic operating procedure.
But either the worker didn't really know what he was doing or race control really didn't know what they were doing for something like this to happen. Either way, its unacceptable for a field of race cars to *return* to an incident like that at speed. Racers miss local yellows all the time, its a fact. Exactly why situations like this need a full course.

For comparison, at my last race at Barber Motorsports Park two Spec Miatas got together between turns 1 and 2 taking out the ITC car that was right behind them. 2 of the 3 cars ended up parked on the racing surface, the other one was off the track but in harms way. This happened right in front of me. By the time I got to turn 4 the double yellows were coming out. It took less than 15 to 20 seconds.
THATS how its done. And THATS what keeps people from needlessly getting hurt.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ponyboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do broke cars on track not get a full course yellow? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Because if all 3 broke cars are located in a few hundred feet worth of track there is no real reason to shut down 2 miles worth of racing surface.

Double yellow means pace car rolls.

In this case I agree that at the VERY LEAST the station where the incident was AND the station before should have been showing yellow. If the cars would not have been able to effectively and safely navigate the area once brought under control (and not at full race speed) then you go full course yellow.

And I HAVE HEARD F&C people here in the NASA-VA region call directly for stations before them to cover with yellows. If the midwest region requires this sort of thing to be handed down from control then they are:

A. Not trusting the judgement of their F&C people who are their "eyes"
B. Trying to keep authority in too centralized of a location

The bottom line is that when an incident occurs in front of a station that station's workers are the ones who know what needs to happen and they need to make the calls according to what THEY see. I understand that a corner station cannot call for a full course yellow and it shouldn't BUT at the same time control needs to not debate what a station is telling it.

In the end it sounds like the corner had an inexperienced worker in it and Control was second-guessing its staff.

 

I was in direct sight of the incident at Madness, walking toward it, watching and talking with a fellow H-T member and Honda racer. I saw about the last 75% of the first incident and am very clear about what happened afterward.

I did not see what actually caused Kevin's car perpendicular into the tire wall blocking a bit less than half the track, but I saw the car go there. In that uphill hard left in tight traffic, there was no chance for driver's on the outside of another car to know what was there and thus I don't think Ed and John had a chance to avoid their impacts. Once the incident happened, we picked up the brisk walking pace to get closer and immediately said to each other "They need to go full course if not stop the race". There was more than enough time for a double yellow to be thrown, possibly even by the time the first cars got to start/finish with a pace car dispatched from the pits although that would have been very close to get the pace car out. We could not beleive that there was not at least a full course yellow through by the time the pack got up to the Keyhole.

Totally unacceptable in my eyes. What you guys in the cars or watching from the hill on the otherside did not see was that the first corner worker who got to the incident left his large fire extinguisher on the track as he attended to the drivers about 4-5 feet out from Ed's car cutting down the clear lane of track at the apex greatly and further increasing the hazard. I looked down at the station at the end of the straight and they were broadly waving the yellow as was the station where the incident was. I don't know if the stations at the Keyhole or the middle of the back straight head a stationary yellow flag showing but as a worker for many years I know that preceding a waving yellow with at least one stationary yellow is standard SCCA flagging procedure.

By the time the pack was coming back around, the corner worker was back in his position behind the guardrail but his fire bottle was still standing in the middle of the track. We couldn't beleive that it hadn't been full course yellowed or stopped, there was more than enough time for this to happen and well over 2/3 of the track was now fully blocked and three drivers were still in their cars. When the pack did come through, I was surprised at the quick pace they came off the back straight with the big waving yellow there. The pass or attempted pass under the yellow did definately happen as I was specifically watching rather shocked and we even said "He's still racing" and driving hard. Up a steep hill with with locked brakes and tire smoke, not doubt it was lucky he didn't just pile into the back of the dead cars. I can't believe no one hit the fire bottle that was standing by itself between Ed's car and the apex. I have a photo from the top of the hill showing the track blockage but the We-Todd sitre is down right now.

I enjoyed meeting a lot of people at the event and sorry that I missed meeting some others (I saw the "Hollister" T-shirt Saturday night, remembered the reference but not the person attached). I am really sorry that so many of those folks went home with some pretty serious car damage from either the Saturday or Sunday races. I would seriously doubt that even 25% of the HC cars went home in the condition they arrived in. If you didn't have contact or major mechanical issues, you should consider yourself a winner. I don't know the cause of it, if the HC racing is always this rough or if the added fervor of the West vs. East raised the pulse a bit too high.

But back to the original point, there was most certainly enough time for a full course yellow and people and machinery were put at excess risk because it was not done. I was there, I saw and had plenty of time to talk about it. I worked Course Control for many years and spent a lot of time on the radios talking with Race Control and it takes just a few seconds to ask for, decide on, and radio back to put up a full course caution and they had over a minute and a half and didn't.

 

Subscribing 'cause I know there's gotta be video.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evil Drew M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Because if all 3 broke cars are located in a few hundred feet worth of track there is no real reason to shut down 2 miles worth of racing surface.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, I soooooooo disagree.

This is amatuer road racing. Its not NASCAR or F1.
Safety first. Always and forever. You can easily lose a couple of laps of an amateur race to get drivers and cars out of harms way without thinking twice about it. There is no hundreds of thousands of dollars purse on the line, there aren't 75000 spectators and Waltrip isn't up in the booth criticising the call on live TV. Just stop the damned race and get those guys out of there.
Not a hard call at all.

 

I agree, especially considering the rate at which those yellow flags get missed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evil Drew M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Because if all 3 broke cars are located in a few hundred feet worth of track there is no real reason to shut down 2 miles worth of racing surface.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, I soooooooo disagree.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Keep in mind I was not at the race and haven't seen any video/pictures, but I'm going to chime in here really quick.

In many situations what Drew said will work. Any of you that have raced with NASA-VA can agree with that, we throw local yellows and roll EV to an incident all the time without shutting down the whole race. It sounds like this incident was more drastic than those that just require a local yellow. There was a "failure to communicate" the severity of the incident in question, and that is something that needs to be adressed to the corner worker involved as well as Race Control.

 

i was also spectating near said incident.

i agree that the race should have been stopped. there was not a good way to clear this even with a full course yellow due to how the wreckers had to park to access the vehicles.

i would reserve judgement on the individual driver that was said to be passing without seeing his in-car video. imho, all the drivers were entering a limited sight area too fast with a waving yellow.

with the leaders and everyone checking up so fast, i am not sure the near miss was the result of still racing and trying to pass or if when everyone up front checked up, he simply took evasive action.

real hard to distinguish between from outside the cockpit.

certainly was too close for comfort. in the confusion, i did not see that the corner worker get out of there. i had thought he was still in the tangle of the cars when the leaders approached. i was afraid another impact would see crushed legs or worse for the person in the midst.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tom91ita &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there was not a good way to clear this even with a full course yellow due to how the wreckers had to park to access the vehicles.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This brings up an interesting point, what happened to the track while EV was removing the vehicles, same flag situation as before, double yellow, what? IMO how comfortable EV feels is a very good indication of how an incident should have been flagged prior to them arriving.

 

NASA-OH does not do hot pulls. If the EV/Wrecker/Etc need to come out, the session is black flagged (everyone in the pits) and the group loses whatever track time it takes to clear up the incident(s).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dragon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This brings up an interesting point, what happened to the track while EV was removing the vehicles, same flag situation as before, double yellow, what? IMO how comfortable EV feels is a very good indication of how an incident should have been flagged prior to them arriving.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The two EVs were on the track when the cars were in the pits during the black. Ed's and Kevin's cars were pushed together hard enough that when the hook wrecker picked up Ed's car, it took a person or two to try to pry the cars apart and the two mirrors had interlocked. Once free, Kevin drove away and Ed's was dragged slowly away to be hauled off later and Jon's was pulled away by a second hook wrecker. Then there was a crew of sprobably six with oil dry, brooms and blowers. Not something that could have been easily accomplished with cars still circulating. The race stoppage was correct, just a lap too late.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, I soooooooo disagree.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We'll see how you react the next time there is a full course yellow for a spun and stalled car.

I was speaking in general terms and not necessarily for this specific incident.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is no hundreds of thousands of dollars purse on the line, there aren't 75000 spectators and Waltrip isn't up in the booth criticising the call on live TV. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Good. Tell that to all the drivers who are acting like they lost a million dollar purse by having their race shortenned by 5 minutes.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not a hard call at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which was sort of my point as well. Unfortunately it WAS a hard call to make. For whatever reason the corner worker didn't make the proper call(s) and/or Control wasn't given the proper info/chose to not respond to the corner's info properly.

Just out of curiosity - how many corner workers were at this station?

 

I think it was not just the workers and race controls fault.

I agree that the corner workers probably didn't communicated how bad, and how much of the track was being blocked to race control. Even if this is true, race control should of been safe and just sent down the full course yellow for the fact that we had cars stopped on track.

Many of the racers need to share part of the blame also, because I saw racers flying down the back straight with the big waving yellow there. Either they missed the yellow flags, or just assumed the incident was off track, shrugged it off, and didn't slow down at all.

*bad communication
*should of picked safety over racing with a full course yellow
*racers need to slow down for yellow flags

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NASA-OH does not do hot pulls.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ahhh I see, so you had these three (four after the other driver joined them) sitting there the entire race. That adds a whole new wrinkle to the equation obviously. Since there is no removal of an incident mid session did this pile-up warrant stopping the race just after it began, or was it something that could have been run under local yellow (assuming all drivers saw and obeyed the yellow). Coming from an organization that does hot pulls I must ask what difference is there between a double yellow + pace car and just black flagging the whole race (assuming of course the drivers can't get their cars out of harms way on their own). If you're not going to remove the incident in question, and the only safe option is double yellow with a pace car, at that point in the race, just black flag the whole thing since it's less than halfway, clear the incident, restart race.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evil Drew M &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Just out of curiosity - how many corner workers were at this station?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Two. And two back up the track at the previous corner at the end of the back straight.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NASA-OH does not do hot pulls. If the EV/Wrecker/Etc need to come out, the session is black flagged (everyone in the pits) and the group loses whatever track time it takes to clear up the incident(s).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Never understood that one. SCCA (certainly WDCR) and NASA-VA do hot pulls all the time. Is there something track-specific that makes it unsafe/unfeasible?

If you can't trust your racers enough to behave while their are EV/workers on course, then you shouldn't let them race in the first place.