I feel like I can't get the car to stick, even being smooth the front end wants to slide around. I couldn't lower the pressures any in the front either. I had a quater turn in the koni's in the front and 1.5 in the rear, i like the way the rear was set up, but not the front. I'm sure some of it has to do with driver input, and it's not like I'm going to do anything right away (damn edgumication ) but I just want some thoughts on the issue. If I change something on the car should I go with wheels (konig heliums 15x6.5 with azenis) or a stiffer spring?

This is on my 91 civic Si with yellow knoi's as the only suspension mod, besides wheels with Falken Ziex Ze 512

If anyone has any other suggestions throw them out too please.

 

So you've got a push. What are your spring rates in front, in rear? Keep working on being smooth on corner entry so you don't upset the car. Are you trying to carry to much speed into the corner and then turn in too abruptly. There may be a couple of things you can do to fix your push. Dedicated track car or mostly street car?

 

This is autocoss I am guessing? Springs will help, so will a bigger rear bar and maybe a bit o tweaked driving style. Your shock adjustments sound fine so obviously your issies are primarily upstream of shocks which are a fine tune adjustment. Make sure you don't have any toe in front or rear. Play with tire pressures until you can afford springs and/or a rear bar.

 

They are the stock springs, I'm not sure what the rates are, but just to give you an idea I'll give you a pic at the bottom. I could very well be going too fast on entry, I know a couple of times I had missed my brake zones and it really pushed. It just seems like even if I hit my brake zones and my lines perfectly I'm still pushing. I mean, this was my second event, and my fastest was a 79.8 I think, about mid-pack among drivers out there, so I've still got a good bit of learning to do. I'm running 42/38 an I wouldn't want to go any lower in the front, this is a daily driven car by the way.

 

What tires and tire pressures are you running? Your car does have significant roll, so a rear anti-roll bar would help loosen the car up and not affect your car on the street.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What tires and tire pressures are you running? Your car does have significant roll, so a rear anti-roll bar would help loosen the car up and not affect your car on the street.</TD></TR></TABLE>



try some ground control coilovers w/ 600lb front and 800lb springs in the rear...no more roll

 

42 front 38 rear on Falken Ziex ZE-512 in 195/60-14. I heard somewhere about going to a big bar, like the 22mm's, can do undercarage damage on stock springs.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">daily driven car</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by ewaugh at 5:58 PM 8/22/2004

 

Check out this link.
http://redshiftmotorsports.com/ChrisTech.htm

This is the base for most of the most dominate EF's in SoloII

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep working on being smooth on corner entry so you don't upset the car. Are you trying to carry too much speed into the corner and then turn in too abruptly?</TD></TR></TABLE>

especially for a beginning autcrosser, this is more important than car setup. a bad habit that i personally developed was getting on the throttle too soon and too hard in a turn. if the front tires are at the limit of their grip and you mash the throttle, the car will push badly. focus on being patient, and add throttle gradually as you exit the turn.

jeff

 

yeah, and front wheel drive cars generally like a late apex so the fronts are not worked so hard - especially important the more hp the car generates.

 

What others are saying about driving style is true.

When you learn the whole "eyes up"/"look ahead" technique, you are more able to pick out lines--turn-n-point, apex, ad track out. You always want to be looking ahead 2-3 sets of cones so you can set up the car for the next corner.

The whole idea is to ATTACK the course rather than REACT to it. when you REACT, you generally react too late, overcook it, and end up understeering into no tomorrow.

That said, proper spring/shock/sway setup will help the car be more neutral or tailhappy at the limits, which is much nicer to deal with.

 

Yep, and to be competitive, you need to have the whole package driver, car, and car setup. The difficult part is when you're a newbie to racing, you tend to want to focus too much on changing the car. However, a newbie should have a car that handles well and will allow him/her to improve driving skills. As more experience is gained, then the car setup can be changed or experimented with.

 

I know quite a few people who learned to drive and set up simultaneously by starting with a car that handles like ***. Learning to drive while you work around a car's shortcomings makes working with a car that has very few of those shortcomings pretty easy. So, put Azenis on one corner and studded snows on another and go learn some shiz.

 

dont change anything on the car for a few more events. the only thing you should do is practice your driving and play with tire pressure. myabe just get a set of azenis for your current rims.

for pressure, im not sure on the tires you are using but on azenis, 35-38f 28-30r works very well for me. some people like to run very high pressure in the rear to try to get the rear end a little more loose, but running lower pressure rear actually works the same way becasue of the increase in the rear slip angle. it will all come to your own preference so just play around with it until you find something you like.

and 90% of the time understeer is caused by driving style so learn to drive smoothe before making any serious mods to the car. have fun and good luck!

 

Between you guys and the SCCA guys it sounds like I need to learn how to drive

From the fastest guy in the parking lot, in a 89 'teg with R compounds and shocks, who beats the times of WRX's running in SM: "A few years ago I took a few rides in a CRX with Bill F. He was complaining of the exact same thing. What I found was that he was trying to power through the turns, instead of lifting for a fraction of a second. After a few runs and he started doing this, his times dropped by about 1.5 seconds. Hope that helps!"

So yeah, I'll play with my driving first, I wasn't going to do anything right away, I've still got to figure out how to pay for school too...

 

Is there a DEFINITE answer on the whole "rear sway bar will cause damage on a reasonably stock suspension"? sorry its such a noob question.

 

i big sway bar on stock springs is asking for trouble. i would not get anything stiffer than a ST 19mm bar and even that might be pushing the subframes limmits on stock springs.

anyways, about lifting through turns. that is a BIG no no once you have your cars suspension worked out. maybe on stock suspension youwill be fine, but lifting mid turn in my car will have you spinnning around VERY quick. when you set up a fwd car to have the rear rotate, braking and lifting in a turn become the enemy. you can trail brake a little but you surely wont want to be mid turn and tapping the brakes.

 

With any set-up the car will only turn so fast without pushing. The trick is to find the limits of your car and not exceed them, when your car is pushing you're going too fast or turning the steering wheel too much for that speed (depending on what way you look at it). Try braking in a straight line before the turn, slow the car down enough so you can smoothly take the turn without pushing or even squeeling tires. Maintain a constant speed through the radius of the turn until you know you can get back on the gas. All inputs: gas, brake and steering should be as smooth as you possibly can. You have a car that dominates STS, so develope your skills and you should be able to smoke some kids...

Practice Practice Practice...sometimes a little slower is a lot faster.

 

[QUOTE=ewaugh]I mean, this was my second event, [QUOTE]

I am betting thats the answer.. Autocrossing is hard, if it was any easier we would call it roadracing

Seriously, give yourself time, and like was said a couple of times.. don't mess with the car. 2nd event, thats like what.. 8 runs.. maybe 10.. even at 60 seconds a run its less than ONE session worth of time on a roadcourse.

one thing i try to explain to people is that because you are "only" doing 25-30 mph you feel slow, but you really are not, and its deceptive. Conncentrate on going only as fast as the car will without sliding, and getting your car placed how you want it. (right line, close to cones, etc)

Run some pressures such as 35 front, 38 rear, and dont mess with them for a while, eventually you will but you want something consistant while you tweak the driver.

I hope that helps,

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

Yeah, don't mess with the car yet. If you're in a stock class, a bigger bar in the rear will bump you into a high one.

No car is ever perfect, so yeah there are a few things you could do that might help, but the best thing is work on driving within the car's limits.

The first thing I think of when I hear the car is pushing... I think of a slow, tight turn with someone either going too fast into the turn, or being impatient and gassing on before unwinding the wheel.

Imagine a string attached to your foot and you hand... as you unwind the wheel your foot can depress the accelerator.

Everyone here has given you primo advice... keep asking questions and ride along with instructors. There's so many sudtile things happening if you can pick up one and work on it. Walk the course, look ahead, be smooth, stay close to the cones, Look ahead, slow in the slow parts, fast in the fast parts, don't coast... above all no matter how competitive you wind up becoming, remember to have fun.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">above all no matter how competitive you wind up becoming, remember to have fun.</TD></TR></TABLE>

by far the best advice yet. you WILL get better with more seat time, it wont come instantly. you will improve quickly for the first season and then you will most likely level off on the autox plateau and stay there for a year, three, maybe much longer.

just keep driving and make as little changes to the car until you can consistantly drive the car to IT'S max potential. then move up to some better parts and start the learning process again. and always remember that the only thing that really matters in autox is having fun.

i wish i would have taken my own advice before ending up having a DM civic hatch