discuss

 

shocks only work when the is in chassis motion. you could have the stiffest shock in the world and if you stayed in a corner long enough you'd still have the same terminal roll angle as if you used a softer shock. not to mention, what do you do when you show up at a race on a bumpy track??

we have 3 elements at our disposal to tune our suspension. why throw away one or two of them?? a little of each would theoretically net a car that is more adaptable to a wider range of surface variations and grip levels.

nate

 

My take is that using the shocks damping to achieve roll stiffness is like a crutch. The damping should be used to control the springs. To get more or less roll stiffness, use the springs and swaybars.

This assumes that you can do whatever you want with swaybars and spring rates by class rules. If you can not change either, then the shock tuning will have to do.

I am sure there are many others that can shed more light than this...

 

What Solo-X said basically. When I was a kid my stepfather used to tune roadrace cars for people (including building from scratch a pair of Formula Fords in the middle of my mom's living room when I was 12) and he said some things that have always stuck in my head. He always described sway bars as "unhandlers" as their action tended to take away from or limited clean movement of the suspension rather than to enable it to move more so sway bars were usually at the end of his list as tuning devices after springs and dampers.

There are a number of theories of suspension set-up and they generally use the same basic parts but give greater or lesser importance to certain parts as they interact.

 

You might tune transient roll stiffness with damping - if it's all you have to work with because of rules for instance. A tourniquet around the neck can stop a nosebleed too.

We talk and think sometimes as if our cars take a set - they never really do, the chassis is always in motion. That being the case, excessive damping can cost grip and hence control and speed.

Scott, who finds it really is often troo: the solution to the problem creates the next problem...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Steady &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">discuss </TD></TR></TABLE>Not unless I have to, much like people who are tuning roll stiffness with shocks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My take is that using the shocks damping to achive roll stiffness is like a crutch. The damping should be used to control the springs. To get more or less roll stiffness, use the springs and swaybars.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Although I certainly beleiver that everyone has a right to their own opinion and what works best for them, I think people make too much these days specifically about spring rates alone and dampers ("Does it control control this rate?, What is the spring rate limit for this shock?", etc.) and taking away actual consideration of the car as a whole. By sticking to spring rate control alone, I think it is being blind to many other things that dampers can have impact upon like sprung and unsprung weight, grip effects and transitional control, and balance tuning.

Remember that you are driving a car made of a large number of interacting parts and you can't just isolate out the springs alone to be controlled.

 

There is also that phrase that goes something like...the more you learn about something, the more you realize how little you know... Shock tuning has always been a mystery to me. I just know what my poor old Tokicos can do (or not ) for my car and its handling. Do you have any good references for shock tuning theory that you could share?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you have any good references for shock tuning theory that you could share?</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.auto-ware.com/ubbth...art=1

Maybe a little too involved for this application and discussion, but good info at the same time.....

 

Start soft
Drive
Tune transitional balance to taste
Drive
Go stiffer if you experience uncontrolled occillation
Drive more
Drive even more and quit monkeying with the shocks
Get someone clever to coach you so you actually improve your driving
Continue to resist temptation to diddle with ***** and stuff
Make sure none of the parts fall off
Drive some more
Race
Have fun

K

 

Ah...yes "The Consultant" Mr. Ortiz.

Thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you have any good references for shock tuning theory that you could share?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I certainly did not mean to discredit your statement as it may likely work very well for your needs. My suggestion is just that we should keep an open mind as these parts don't operate in a vacuam and there is a great deal of interaction and we shouldn't discredit the effect a part might be able to have on the pakage as a whole. My experiences and work have shown that shocks can be very good tuning devices for a number of cars but the way you use them still needs to be linked to a car that you are trying to improve.

Some folks here want to discuss theory in a vacuam with no relation to a car yet the application of springs, bars and dampers will be different (and maybe contradictory) on an Indy car, a Trans Am car, a FWD production based car, etc. However when any data or evidence gets introduced from a real world situation, it has come from a car that has it's own considerations do it must be weighed for use and not applied to all situations. When it comes down to it, the importance and interaction of parts for these cars will change as the goals or performance changes. My street CRX has different springs, dampers and bars than does my race CRX but that doesn't mean that one has a bad suspension, I like and have developed each for it's needs.

As I have said, most of the time my focus has been on spring rates in the right area, good adjustable dampers and then sway bars and tuning from there. Most of my experience personally and professionally is in production based cars and we all know that quickly stock spring rates become too soft for much performance use so that is what I normally deal with first. With springs in the right ballpark for the activity, the dampers need to be capable of not only controlling the larger spring movement but it can be used for refining a great deal of car motion and grip maximization. Sway bars too can play an important rule for roll and suspension control.

 

It's troo.

There is no answer - no science that applies uniformly.

It's all very complex - you simply wouldn't understand.

Everything interrelates and there are so many variables - you simply can't make ANY generalizations.

This car needs this, that car needs that - it's completely contradictory. What theory could describe such chaos? It's hopeless...We're Lost....LOST.

Oh, sure, there are some Magic Elves who can transmute the evil spirits...whispering amonst themselves in Dutch or Swedish. And there are also some bigger more gnarly elves that whisper with a bit more angst in German. These mysterious creatures can materialize the magic carpet we desire, but understand it not we can.

Scott, who isn't forgetting about Penske...it's just that everyone knows there's no such thing as an American Elf.

 

Lee,

I did not take any offense. Hope it did not sound that way. My comment was directed more at myself than anyone else. I consider myself to be a student on just about everything. Even the subjects that I have a lot of experience with, I am always trying to learn a little more about.

I agree 100% on the open mind thing. It is hard for people to keep an open mind as their experience grows. That is the pitfall.

I just figured, based on your experience, you might have some good sources for info that is not double top secret.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RexRacer19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lee,
I just figured, based on your experience, you might have some good sources for info that is not double top secret.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone who knows me knows that little if anything is double top secret. I'll share any info that I can and help guide anyone that I can. If I don't know, I'll tell you and if you can help me learn, I'll listen. I certainly don't claim to have all of the answers regarding suspension and dampers but I have been for some time in an environment for some time that allows one to have more exposure to more data, theory, experience, and people and get a better opportunity for focus and understanding on some things than other folks.

For anyone looking for a guru on a mountain top that knows all, I don't think he exists especially the wider the realm and specialties become. I have met some specialists for whom I have a great deal of respect and have learned a lot from and some who project themselves on a mountain top that I have limited belief in even if their writings are highly published. The best we can do is gather as much data as you can with a mix of theory and practice to create our own understanding to works with the current info. If you continue to collect data, give it consideration to see how it fits in your model and weed out the chaffe, then that is your best shot.

No magic elves anywhere, save those for the dgenerally but it isn't totally intuitive such that the Great Brain can figure it out on his own. Don't claim to know it all though or you will be for sure wrong. If you drive a Theory then feel free to set it up however you want. If it is an actual vehicle based in reality, then talk with expereinced people, see what seems to make sense for you, try a few things and move forward. They call that Development.

So in answer to the title of the thread, my response would be: In a real and practical situation... yes to some limited degree, but not to the exclusion of other important things.

Modifications = spelling


Modified by CRX Lee at 3:39 PM 8/4/2004

 

Stiff springs will result in transient oversteer at that end of the car. Pitching the car into a turn, the stiff shocks won't move right away, presenting to the chasis an apparently very stiff suspension. But as the cornering is sustained longer, the shock will eventually compress, now giving the impression of a softer suspension to the chassis; now that end of the car will now begin to stick. Short story, it'll feel odd.

 

Among other drawbacks, transferring weight via the dampers disconnects dynamic camber from load somewhat - an idea the badness of which should be obvious.

Scott, who doesn't buy the non-existence of Elves...I've seen em'...saw one once inside a giant transporter...I blinked and he was gone - but I seen em'...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Among other drawbacks, transferring weight via the dampers disconnects dynamic camber from load somewhat - an idea the badness of which should be obvious.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What do you mean, weight is always transferred through the dampers on corner entry. Hard damping = fast weight transfer, Soft damping = slow weight transfer

 

Yah, dat's troo....Some.

Any more than was inescapably necessary was what I was getting at.

Scott, who's splitting hairs....it's a cult thing...Elves...Cults....it's what racing comes down to in the final analysis.