I'm getting very frustrated with my car. We've had 5 events and 2 were full downpour events. I've place next to last and mid pack respectively. My car just does not want to go fast in the rain. I know it's not me since I jumped in someone else's car and beat my own time and almost tied the owner.

My setup:
205/50x15" Azenis (almost new, almost full tread - 2 autocrosses), 15x7" Kosei K1s, 350f/400r Ground Control springs, Koni Yellows, Skunk2 camber arms (-2.7 front), Ingalls rear camber kit (-2.0 rear), ES suspension bushing kit, and Neuspeed rear strut bar.

The course:
weather was in the 70s, course was DRENCHED all day. Asphalt is cured. We haven't run on the lot since last month.

I tried everything:
1st run 38f/34r, shocks all soft - 36.1
2nd run 36f/32r, shocks all soft - 35.8
3rd run 35f/31r, shocks all soft - 35.7
4th run 35f/31r, 1/2 turn front, 1 turn rear on shocks - 36.9
5th run 38f/34r, shocks all soft - 35.7

Then on my fun runs:
1st run 42f/38r, shocks all soft - 35.9
2nd run 41f/35r, shocks all soft - 35.3
3rd run 40f/35r, 1/2 turn front, 1 turn rear - 35.7

So what's going on here? I keep hearing you should go down in pressures when it rains. But when I increased my pressures my car was a bit easier to turn (now I admit NOT great, but turned better than before).

In the dry I get my competitors by at least 1/2 second consistently. But in the rain I loose bad.

Thanks!
Mike

 

1) flip your springs front to rear
2) what does your alignment look like?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlapSmak &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) flip your springs front to rear
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bad suggestion. I've always tried to lower pressures about 3-4 psi in the rain. I haven't done much setup testing though so I don't change any shock settings.

 

You might be fast in someone else's car in the rain, but that doesn't mean you know how to drive YOUR car in the rain.

 

I'm chasing the same problem... when I was dialed in at an event with a dry setup... it's horrible in rain. My car doesn't turn to save its life when it's wet. Someone suggested that it's my -2.8 degrees of camber... Theory being that we're not getting enough grip to roll and use all of the tire, hence why grip suffers. Sounds good to me... I'll try dialing down the camber next rain event.

 

Oh yeah alignment.

0 toe front and rear.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Someone suggested that it's my -2.8 degrees of camber</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now I thought about that too, but changing my camber is not as easy as let's say the WRXs. Both guys really didn't have alot of negative camber - eyeballing say around -1.5 front on their cars. And almost -.5 to -1.0 in the rear.

I thought about wet surface (slick) aka snow cover surface you want as flat as a tire on the ground since the camber cannot "dig in" to the pavement due to the low friction. Or am I just being stupid?

 

Any more feedback on what it's doing? As long as I disconnect my rear sway and have full treaded tires, my car would do pretty nicely in a downpour.

I'd try 3-4 more psi in back than in front, wherever you start off at. If it's too evil, then undo one end of your rear sway. Shocks should stay soft.

Warren

 

ive noticed this phenomenon in stock classes as well. we'll some times get some of the celica driving hotshoes from chicago down at our events, and sometimes it rains. at one fo these events, my dad and i codrove his 20th anniversary gti. we destroyed the celicas, my dad getting FTDI. difference: celicas are 'stiffer' cars from the factory than the gti is, celicas on bridgestone S03s, us on the stock issue tires.

on a different occassion, my miata broke and i needed to bum a ride from some one. luckily, a friend let me borrow his (identical) 20th ae gti. the event got rained on pretty good. standing water, and it rained almost all day. i ran the car in sts just to see how it would do. i got FTDI, beating a guy that usually gets FTDI in his sentra by over a full second. the difference: that sentra is reeeally stiffly sprung. me on stock tires, him on close to full tread azenis (this probably contributed to how far back he was).

my conclusion was that a car with more compliance will almost always do better in the wet. unfortunately, i dont think its so much an issue of shock tuning as much as it is an issue of spring stiffness.

 

Looks like all soft (shocks) was your best run, but realize that every time you changed something that YOU had to adapt.

It also looks like higher pressures in the front compared to the rear worked out pretty well.

Are you saying it wouldn't turn because you were understeering?

If so, next time when adjusting your shocks try leaving the fronts full soft and adjusting the rears 1/2 turn harder at a time. Also I would suggest trying one thing at a time and for a few runs... so you can get used to the settings.

I also find that if you LIKE driving in the rain then you'll drive better.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondan00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my conclusion was that a car with more compliance will almost always do better in the wet. unfortunately, i dont think its so much an issue of shock tuning as much as it is an issue of spring stiffness. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That makes sense... softer springs will allow the weight of the car to transition more slowly and will help make the most of what little traction is available in addition to making the car "easier" to drive at the limit of adhesion.

Case in point: my wife's Protege 5 is an absolute hoot to drive in the wet whereas my stiffly sprung SM car is an unholy terror... her's transitions more smoothly and slowly than mine ever could, well, unless I went back toa stock-ish suspension

Christian, who can enjoy a HPDE in the rain but normally not autoX

 

Yeah Mike, I think you needed to soften up the front (via swaybar and struts) and decrease the camber a bit (not easily adjustable on your car). If you niticed the faster cars were on softer suspensions yesterday and or had no swaybars (Geoff Craig). Then again the conditions changes 3 times during the competition too.

My first outing in my R was fun. I wish it was not in the rain, but fun none the less.

Dave M

 

mike, what exactly is the car NOT doing in the wet? is it understeering, oversteering, or just plain slow?

fwiw, i use my dry setup in the wet. it _might_ be slower, but it is so difficult to drive consistently fast in the rain in an autocross situation that i prefer to focus on the driving more then anything else.

btw, your car is the farthest thing from "stiff" this side of a stock suspension. knock 300lbs off your car and double your spring rates, then we'll start talking about stiff. you are definitely not at the point that your not getting the car to roll up onto the tire. i've only hit that point once and that was the first event of the season, 45*, rainy and with "crusty" tires.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mike, what exactly is the car NOT doing in the wet? is it understeering, oversteering, or just plain slow?
fwiw, i use my dry setup in the wet. it _might_ be slower, but it is so difficult to drive consistently fast in the rain in an autocross situation that i prefer to focus on the driving more then anything else.

btw, your car is the farthest thing from "stiff" this side of a stock suspension. knock 300lbs off your car and double your spring rates, then we'll start talking about stiff. you are definitely not at the point that your not getting the car to roll up onto the tire. i've only hit that point once and that was the first event of the season, 45*, rainy and with "crusty" tires.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well to give you an idea. The fastest time in STS was a 34.9 (1993 Civic Si - somewhat illegal with stripped out stereo, speakers, wires, various buttons (ie. sunroof electronics gone, cruise control gone), and (in my opinion) aftermarket clutch since clutch was really stiff), next was a 35.1 (2002 Civic Si - basically stock except intake, and lowering springs, rear strut bar - 2700lbs), and then me with a 35.7. Almost a full second.

My car really had no traction off the line and compared to the other two cars (I drove both on fun runs) I had to wait to get on the gas a REALLY REALLY ETERNALLY LONG time. Braking wasn't an issue as I was braking in the same area with all 3 cars.

The course was like this:
1. Go straight for about 100 feet and make a hard right hand turn.
2. Go through 3 offset gates (more so a slalom)
4. Make a hard 270 degree right hand turn.
5. Straight for about 100 feet, into a left hand 40-60 degree sweeper.
6. Into a about 50 feet and into a hard left hand turn (approximately 100 degrees)
7. Straight for about 50 feet into a 3 cone optional slalom (i took it left side every time).
8. After the last slalom (you ended up on the left side) you entered a 100 degree hard right hand turn.
9. Into 3 slightly offset gates (you could drive through them if you got set up for it right).
10. Into a 90 degree right hand turn and then straight to the finish line.

I know I lost time coming out of corners, which was prolly 1 full second right there. Yeah I know my car is a pig Stop rubbing it in. :D Hopefully next year have it down to 2200-2250. If not I give up and getting something else.

Anything else?

 

here is a vid of some of the fun runs for mikes 00 si and my 02 si with mike and alex driving mine. when I ran I got down to a 34.8xx

click http://home.comcast.net/~brian...s.wmv

 

a larger rear sway bar would help the front end traction methinks...

play with alignment, tire pressures, and driving to combat any oversteer issues.

 

for the rain, taking away grip from either end is probably a bad idea. if the car plows, i would rather make the front a little softer, like taking the front sway bar out of the equation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondan00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for the rain, taking away grip from either end is probably a bad idea. if the car plows, i would rather make the front a little softer, like taking the front sway bar out of the equation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

um, you're taking grip away from the rear when you do that. not to mention increasing the terminal roll angle and "slowing" the front of the car down. i'd prefer to do that with driver input rather then chassis setup...

while i'll agree that a softer car is easier to drive in the wet, mike's car isn't nearly stiff enough that this is a concern. i'm downloading the video now. i'll post again once i've seen that.

nate

 

Although i've never ran Azenis in the rain (only r-tires), i'd say your pressures sound waay too high. On a drenched lot at 70 degress, i'd typically run 26-28F/23-25R to get the best results. I've done this with Victoracers, V700s, RA1s and Z211s. All seem to work best at much lower pressures, for auto-x at least. Last year i co-dove an ITR in a downpour at 40 degrees temp. We were down to 22psi by the end of the day. The car owner set FTD that day by over 2 seconds, fwiw...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">um, you're taking grip away from the rear when you do that. not to mention increasing the terminal roll angle and "slowing" the front of the car down. i'd prefer to do that with driver input rather then chassis setup...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i said that i would rather take the front sway off than stiffening the rear. while softening the front has a similar effect to stiffening the rear, it *will* make the car much more driveable in the rain. dont forget that for the average driver at least, you *want* a 'slower' car in the rain. it may be a slower set-up, but it is one where the maximum performance is more easily reached.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
while i'll agree that a softer car is easier to drive in the wet, mike's car isn't nearly stiff enough that this is a concern.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i point you to my previous example involving *stock* celica GTs and a *stock* 20th AE GTI. it is an issue of how easy the car is to drive. a car that rolls around a little more in the wet is one where the weight transfer is much more apparent. if the driver has an easier time sensing it, they can then drive the car faster. you may disagree, but this is what ive learned from experience. it is simply easier to drive faster in the wet with a softer car. however, im sure there is a limit to how soft one can go, that point probably being the result of suspension geometry and how much movement the driver can handle. the point is that even some stock cars may be a little 'stiff' for the wet when non perfect drivers are behind the wheel.

 

just finished watching the vid. mike, was that you driving in the fun runs, with a 35.3? if so, those fun runs weren't exactly in the wet. i wouldn't call it dry, but definitely not wet...

the only thing that is glaringly obvious is where the 1-2 shift is happening. who ever was driving was staying in first around the first right hander. however, they needed to use the brake just before the right hander, then wait for the wheelspin to go away before the tire would hook up and then shift halfway down the next straight. probably would have been .2 quicker just by upshifting earlier, only breathing around the right hander, then rolling on the power early on exit.

other then that i didn't see very much trailbraking going on and i saw a lot of choppiness on the brake pedal. there wasn't very much tire noise, so it seemed like the car wasn't at the limit of adhesion very often. also, the course didn't really work well with a low torque, high revving motor and a relatively porky chassis. the 02 had a huge advantage in torque coming off the corners, the 93 probably was cornering better and also has an advantage with low end torque.

in conclusion, i would say there is a small part car and car setup involved with your poor times at this event, but the biggest problem is your mental image of driving in the rain. labeling yourself as slow in the rain isn't helping anything. work on being smoother in the wet, maintaining momentum more, and relying on horsepower less.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondan00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i said that i would rather take the front sway off than stiffening the rear. while softening the front has a similar effect to stiffening the rear, it *will* make the car much more driveable in the rain. dont forget that for the average driver at least, you *want* a 'slower' car in the rain. it may be a slower set-up, but it is one where the maximum performance is more easily reached.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you _think_ it will make the car more driveable, and it might. then again, it might not. disconnecting the front swaybar will make the car looser. if it was already loose to begin with, now it's worse. even worse then that, because the car is responding slower, it takes longer to let you know when things are going to get out of control. now, in this situation, the car is more difficult to drive. if it ends up being faster for you it's probably because the car setup has forced you to slow down. something you should have done in the first place to go even faster with the previous setup.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i point you to my previous example involving *stock* celica GTs and a *stock* 20th AE GTI. it is an issue of how easy the car is to drive. a car that rolls around a little more in the wet is one where the weight transfer is much more apparent. if the driver has an easier time sensing it, they can then drive the car faster. you may disagree, but this is what ive learned from experience. it is simply easier to drive faster in the wet with a softer car. however, im sure there is a limit to how soft one can go, that point probably being the result of suspension geometry and how much movement the driver can handle. the point is that even some stock cars may be a little 'stiff' for the wet when non perfect drivers are behind the wheel.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

this comparison is suspect. why? a celica weighs over 500lbs less then the vw does. the vw has more torque lower in the power band. the suspension designs are completely different, and the level of prep is unknown. some cars are just plain better in the rain. soft or stiff doesn't really matter. with the limited time on course and the increased emphasis on driver when driving in the wet, i prefer to not waste my time fiddling with the car. tweak the shocks or whatever to get it driveable, then drive it. great, now i'm sounding like keith and tom!

nate

 

Nate thanks for your analysis and critique. Yes towards the end of my fun runs it was getting drier. Still a bit slippery though with the sand from the construction and dirt track next door. I tried a 1-2 shift before the mentioned corner (right hander) and that was on my 4th run if I remember right - I'll have to go back to my tapes to check.

Today I thought alot on my performance yesterday and come to realize I have gotten back into old bad habits like you've mentioned.

I'll post a couple incar views in a few days if you don't mind more critiqueing (since divisonals are this weekend).


Modified by CivicSiRacer at 12:30 AM 7/20/2004

 

Mike thanks for being open enough to allow others to critique your driving. This will make you a better driver. It would be easier to get to a certain point and stop learning.

This has been a great thread and something that has got me thinking a bit more about my own driving habits, too. I know I tend to forget at times, and drop my eyes down too close to the car... especially in slaloms.

Nate also points out some great analysis. Though I didn't watch the video, I can still see by the comments made, that he took the time to really watch what was going on. Bringing back to the equation the driver, who is the cheapest, but not necessarily the easiest to modify, was key.

-dave, who hasn't changed pressures or shock settings for the first three autocrosses in the ITA car.
8)

 

I always need schooling

I know I let Corey Ridgick ride with me back in April/May and he told me that it seemed my car was at the limit, that I couldn't push my car any harder than it could go, which made me start thinking of a new ride for next year anyway.

I do think with a little bit more time and money this car can do well, but like you said Dave the nut behind the wheel is getting rusty Hopefully if I can win the Sliderule Cup I can attend another Evo School