SPARCO harness bars
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From: Tacoma, WA, USA
Re: SPARCO harness bars (Evil Drew M)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evil Drew M »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bad idea.
A harness in a car without rollover protection = your neck snapped if your roof collapses.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And just to add, roll-bars in daily driven cars = usually a really bad idea. Your head impacting a roll-bar w/o a helmet on it = severely creased skull.
Paul
A harness in a car without rollover protection = your neck snapped if your roof collapses.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And just to add, roll-bars in daily driven cars = usually a really bad idea. Your head impacting a roll-bar w/o a helmet on it = severely creased skull.
Paul
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Re: SPARCO harness bars (tec-9-7)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tec-9-7 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And just to add, roll-bars in daily driven cars = usually a really bad idea. Your head impacting a roll-bar w/o a helmet on it = severely creased skull.
Paul</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah that too.
EDIT: Punted to RR/AX for more fun . . .
And just to add, roll-bars in daily driven cars = usually a really bad idea. Your head impacting a roll-bar w/o a helmet on it = severely creased skull.
Paul</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah that too.
EDIT: Punted to RR/AX for more fun . . .
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From: Concord, CA, USA
I've been hearing this comments for a while and totally disagree.
You got more to worried if you are not strapped tightly on your seat in a rollover situation. You do not want to be bouncing around inside the car when the rollover happen. If someone tells me they can slide from their seat in a rollover situation to help them when the roof collapse, they haven't experience it themselves. It happens so quick and violent, you got no time to react.
In any accident, there is always a chance of a rollover. However, typical cars is usually design to have their strongest point on the roof, just behind your head. thus protecting you best when you are strapped tightly on your seat. Additionally, modern seats (or any car seats other than bench) are making it harder to slide, since they are designed to hug you in place, and the seat belts are designed to do that as well.
For street use, I would not recommend roll cage/bar. It can cause more damage than help u in most situation. The bars usually sits inches from your head and can impact your head when you hit a bump or minor crash that otherwise would not hurt you.
You got more to worried if you are not strapped tightly on your seat in a rollover situation. You do not want to be bouncing around inside the car when the rollover happen. If someone tells me they can slide from their seat in a rollover situation to help them when the roof collapse, they haven't experience it themselves. It happens so quick and violent, you got no time to react.
In any accident, there is always a chance of a rollover. However, typical cars is usually design to have their strongest point on the roof, just behind your head. thus protecting you best when you are strapped tightly on your seat. Additionally, modern seats (or any car seats other than bench) are making it harder to slide, since they are designed to hug you in place, and the seat belts are designed to do that as well.
For street use, I would not recommend roll cage/bar. It can cause more damage than help u in most situation. The bars usually sits inches from your head and can impact your head when you hit a bump or minor crash that otherwise would not hurt you.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: (Andrie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been hearing this comments for a while and totally disagree.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Street Incident
Track Incident
Do you want to be strapped upright during that fiasco?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Street Incident
Track Incident
Do you want to be strapped upright during that fiasco?
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Re: (Andrie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been hearing this comments for a while and totally disagree.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well please provide us your practical knowledge/training/experience that puts you in a position to say this.
The people who tell us these facts ultimately are physicists/engineers studying crash data. They are not random people who say "when I rolled my car I was lucky I had a harness on".
No offense to you Andrie but I take the word of industry professionals over yours anyday.
People have DIED as the result of wearing harnesses in rolloves without roll protection and people have survived rolls such as the BMW above without wearing harnesses.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well please provide us your practical knowledge/training/experience that puts you in a position to say this.
The people who tell us these facts ultimately are physicists/engineers studying crash data. They are not random people who say "when I rolled my car I was lucky I had a harness on".
No offense to you Andrie but I take the word of industry professionals over yours anyday.
People have DIED as the result of wearing harnesses in rolloves without roll protection and people have survived rolls such as the BMW above without wearing harnesses.
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From: Concord, CA, USA
Re: (Evil Drew M)
In reply to .RJ post,
that is an accident and could happen on the street as well as on the track. My point is still valid.
Well please provide us your practical knowledge/training/experience that puts you in a position to say this.
The people who tell us these facts ultimately are physicists/engineers studying crash data. They are not random people who say "when I rolled my car I was lucky I had a harness on".
No offense to you Andrie but I take the word of industry professionals over yours anyday.
People have DIED as the result of wearing harnesses in rolloves without roll protection and people have survived rolls such as the BMW above without wearing harnesses.
No offense taken. But your last statement could easily go the opposite.
More people has died as of a result of not wearing 4 or 5 point harnesses in rollover without roll protection. And more people have surviced rolls such as the BMW above with proper harnesses..
Below is an email I have from an acquaintance who went to the tech fest west in LA.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko
distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that
he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When
reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that
don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
Regards,
Marc
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in
cars
without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM,
Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness
belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in
December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed
4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the
likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock
factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they
suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could
greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their
explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where
3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact
with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the
left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge
of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body
eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to
"duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a
3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow
a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing
at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation
that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards
in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can
easily
exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed
to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce
degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as
there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however
allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external
applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount
under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed
rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the
lap belt
as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant
much
tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly
restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs
when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially
come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover
incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs
credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly
increase
vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any
safety system
including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could
result
in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline
for all
safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE
STREET (A
DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD
INJURY IN
EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON
THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE
HEADREST
THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A
MINOR
TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO
THE SEAT
BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO
WORK WITH
HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
that is an accident and could happen on the street as well as on the track. My point is still valid.
Originally Posted by Evil Drew M
Well please provide us your practical knowledge/training/experience that puts you in a position to say this.
The people who tell us these facts ultimately are physicists/engineers studying crash data. They are not random people who say "when I rolled my car I was lucky I had a harness on".
No offense to you Andrie but I take the word of industry professionals over yours anyday.
People have DIED as the result of wearing harnesses in rolloves without roll protection and people have survived rolls such as the BMW above without wearing harnesses.
More people has died as of a result of not wearing 4 or 5 point harnesses in rollover without roll protection. And more people have surviced rolls such as the BMW above with proper harnesses..
Below is an email I have from an acquaintance who went to the tech fest west in LA.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I faithfully transcribed one part of a 4 part document that Joe Marko
distributed at Tech Fest West in LA earlier this year. He did say that
he would like to put it up on his website. I have yet to see it. When
reading this it is apparent to me that there are some sentences that
don't make sense. And, I don't want to editorialize to correct them.
The few things in brackets are my comments.
Regards,
Marc
[Begin Joe Marko's document]
#2-Myth - Aftermarket 4-5-6-point harness belts should not be used in
cars
without roll bars.
A world-renowned panel of SAE vehicle safety experts from GM,
Daimler-Chrysler, Ford, University of Michigan, and a leading harness
belt manufacturer, were posed this question at the PRI show in
December 2002. They unanimously suggested that a properly installed
4-5-6-point harness belt system would significantly reduce the
likelihood of injury in a rollover accident when compared to a stock
factory 3-point system in vehicles without roll bars. In addition they
suggested that use of roll bars in primarily street driven cars could
greatly increase risk to driver and passengers in daily driving. Their
explanation for this is clear:
Most serious driver injury or fatality in rollover accidents (where
3-point factory systems are worn properly) occurs from head contact
with the door frame resulting when a car flips over and crashes on the
left edge of the roof. (Passenger injury occurs when to the right edge
of the roof).
Such rollovers result in loads of 10g to 35g deceleration to the body
eliminating the possibility of controlled "escape" by an occupant to
"duck" from the collapsing roof.
Such deceleration will typically eject the occupant partially from a
3-point factory belt.
The endless loop of webbing from the factory 3-point system will allow
a combination of released webbing from the endless loop of the webbing
at the shoulder that passes through the lap, and webbing elongation
that [when] combined will allow the body to move 50 to 100 mm upwards
in the seat. This can allow significant contact with the doorframe.
Deceleration forces to the head in contact with the door frame can
easily
exceed 300g. Properly installed "static" 4-5-6-point systems installed
to factory provided D and E, or C points [??] will significantly reduce
degree of contact with the door frame or even eliminate contact, as
there is minimal upper torso rotation. This configuration however
allows sufficient lateral movement to be moved as allowed by external
applied forces [??]. Factory seatbacks will flex a significant amount
under load giving more occupant headspace as the seatback is pushed
rearward.
4-5-6-point harness belts generally use 6% elongation webbing in the
lap belt
as opposed to 10-12% webbing in factory belts. This holds the occupant
much
tighter to the seat.
EMTs will confirm that very few serious injuries result from properly
restrained individuals in rollover accidents. Greater injury occurs
when occupants are not restrained properly and have fully or partially
come out of their harness. Schroth has had reports of several rollover
incidents where customers have contacted us and stated that the EMTs
credit the harness belts to [for] the lack of serious injury.
All vehicle safety systems are designed for 99 percentile accidents.
Properly
certified and installed 4-5-6-point harness belts significantly
increase
vehicle safety in 99% of likely accidents including rollovers. Any
safety system
including factory 3-point belts, airbags, traction control, etc. could
result
in greater injury in a 1% incident. The 99% rule is the best guideline
for all
safety equipment.
INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE
STREET (A
DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD
INJURY IN
EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON
THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE
HEADREST
THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A
MINOR
TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO
THE SEAT
BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO
WORK WITH
HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD.
MOST ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THE STREET WITHIN 5 MILES OF HOME!
[End of Joe Marko's document]
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: (Andrie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE
STREET (A
DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD
INJURY IN
EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON
THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE
HEADREST
THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A
MINOR
TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO
THE SEAT
BACK. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Just curious - did they address this type of incident with FIA-stamped fixed back seats?
RJ - with rollbar and evo's in his street driven R
STREET (A
DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD
INJURY IN
EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON
THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE
HEADREST
THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A
MINOR
TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO
THE SEAT
BACK. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Just curious - did they address this type of incident with FIA-stamped fixed back seats?
RJ - with rollbar and evo's in his street driven R
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From: I hate, you
Re: (Andrie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And more people have surviced rolls such as the BMW above with proper harnesses..</TD></TR></TABLE>
They weren't wearing harnesses in that BMW above.
They weren't wearing harnesses in that BMW above.
Trial User
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: Akron, OH
This topic seems to get beaten to death atleast once a month. I'm still split on whether harnesses are a good idea without rollover protection. For autocross, I think they are a must, but for high speed track events I'm 50/50 and usually leave it up to the customer to decide. I've seen all the pictures, like the one of the flattened BMW, but I've also talked to several safety experts, including somebody that has given many safety seminars for the SCCA. All of them so far have told me that harness use without a rollbar is not as dangerous as all the people posting on messageboards seem to think. The last "expert" I talked to about this said the number one danger in a rollover is the drivers (or passengers) head exiting the car thru the side window, which a harness belt would prevent. This seems to go against what most people on the internet claim, where the number one issue seems to be the drivers head/neck being injured when the roof collapses.
This is a tricky subject, and I'm sure that is why you don't really find any articles stating which way to go. I've had several instructors at track events over the years that have used harness bars in their cars, so they must think its OK. You also have many respected companies like Sparco and Brey-Krause making harness bars. Plus Schroth, which is IMHO the best harness manufacturer in the world, makes clip-in/out harnesses for driving schools and track events. These are designed to clip into factory seat belt recepticles instead of mounting to rollbars or harness bars.
This is a tricky subject, and I'm sure that is why you don't really find any articles stating which way to go. I've had several instructors at track events over the years that have used harness bars in their cars, so they must think its OK. You also have many respected companies like Sparco and Brey-Krause making harness bars. Plus Schroth, which is IMHO the best harness manufacturer in the world, makes clip-in/out harnesses for driving schools and track events. These are designed to clip into factory seat belt recepticles instead of mounting to rollbars or harness bars.
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From: I am Tyson
Re: (Evil Drew M)
no offense, but id like to hear statements from your "physicists/engineers [who] study crash data" who say otherwise or statistical numbers so that i can hear both sides of this arguement. of course its hard to validate anyones "expert" opinion on any matter but ill take someones credible name than some "random" person so quickly saying one thing or another.
Member
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From: Merrimack,, NH, USA
Re:
Doesn't it all come down to an individual's risk tollerance?... and their own individual definition of "risk" in this (or any) situation? No matter what the experts say (or us people on the internet), individuals will do whatever *they* think is the safest for them.
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From: I hate, you
Re: Re: (r2x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by r2x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doesn't it all come down to an individual's risk tollerance?... and their own individual definition of "risk" in this (or any) situation? No matter what the experts say (or us people on the internet), individuals will do whatever *they* think is the safest for them.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.
In this case the kid asked for opinions and I gave him mine based on MY perception of the risks.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.
In this case the kid asked for opinions and I gave him mine based on MY perception of the risks.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
Re: Re: (Evil Drew M)
i think they would be a very bad idea for a high speed crash/roll over but other then that... the ad said they also help stiffin the car and crap... so just for auto cross/drag/street use would they be the next best thing to a full cage or is there something else i dont know about?
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Re: (justin 17)
Well, I guess it might stiffen up the chassis a bit. No where near worth the hassle IMO. A harness bar has nearly all the safety and convenience issues that a rollbar has (no people in back seat), without the roll protection and additional chassis stiffening.
It's better than an A-pillar bar or some ****, but I wouldn't do it.
Edit: god damn your signature is gross.
It's better than an A-pillar bar or some ****, but I wouldn't do it.
Edit: god damn your signature is gross.
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Re: Re: (GSpeedR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's better than an A-pillar bar or some ****, but I wouldn't do it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmmm ... how and where would you put one of those?
Hmmm ... how and where would you put one of those?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Re: (zygspeed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmmm ... how and where would you put one of those?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you know where it goes. Highly unrecommended.
I think you know where it goes. Highly unrecommended.
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