Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years..
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From: BeaveRun, PA, USA
Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years..
Alright, I've been weighing the differences that Honda made in the 2004 S2000 and trying to make solid assessments about them (for better or worse).
With the obvious displacement increase, from 2.0 to 2.2L through an increase stroke lenght from 84 to 90.7mm, they achieved 9 more lb-ft of torque 1k RPM sooner in the powerband. It sort of astonishes me that this works out this way, because also with an increase of CR to 11.1:1, this engine has a R/S ratio of 1.04
What kind of time frame are we looking at before a rebuild? One of Honda best R/S ratios came in the B16A engine, and it was 1.75. So what I'm trying to figure out is, how is it that the S2000 is not side loading pistons to the point of real trouble? Afterall, even with the lowered redline, we are talking high revving machines. Or maybe it's the FRM cylinder walls? Got me...
According to another article I read...the gear ratios from 1st-4th have been shortened by 4% resulting in more "pep" off the line and to better suit the new engines characteristics. 5th gear was only shortened by 1% but it turns out that 6th gear was lengthened 2% for a more "relaxed" cruising environment.
Another obvious change was the wheels. They are now equipped with 17" that are wider than the previous 16's. 215/45R17 tires can be found up front, and 245/40R17s in the rear. 2 things I could not find were, did they adjust anything as far as ride height with the 04? And, also, they went to a different tire. Bridgestone Potenze RE050's wrap the 17" wheels now, has anyone compared these to the previous S02's, which were indeed a nice tire?
Handling was also addressed for the 04 model year by adding braces and such to reinforce the chassis to improve handling ability. Quote from one article "Honda claims improvements in overall stability, steering accuracy/effort/feel, bump steer characteristics, wet performance/hydroplaning, high-speed stability, smooth ride comfort, choppy ride comfort, and at the limit controllability"
Here are a couple exterior things that I'm just not sure that I like...one, being the taillights. I like the old design better.
2004 Tails
One "cool" characteristic I saw I liked was the ability to color match the center of the seats.
So, shall we have a good discussion on the changes and what was good/bad about the new and old?
With the obvious displacement increase, from 2.0 to 2.2L through an increase stroke lenght from 84 to 90.7mm, they achieved 9 more lb-ft of torque 1k RPM sooner in the powerband. It sort of astonishes me that this works out this way, because also with an increase of CR to 11.1:1, this engine has a R/S ratio of 1.04
What kind of time frame are we looking at before a rebuild? One of Honda best R/S ratios came in the B16A engine, and it was 1.75. So what I'm trying to figure out is, how is it that the S2000 is not side loading pistons to the point of real trouble? Afterall, even with the lowered redline, we are talking high revving machines. Or maybe it's the FRM cylinder walls? Got me...
According to another article I read...the gear ratios from 1st-4th have been shortened by 4% resulting in more "pep" off the line and to better suit the new engines characteristics. 5th gear was only shortened by 1% but it turns out that 6th gear was lengthened 2% for a more "relaxed" cruising environment.
Another obvious change was the wheels. They are now equipped with 17" that are wider than the previous 16's. 215/45R17 tires can be found up front, and 245/40R17s in the rear. 2 things I could not find were, did they adjust anything as far as ride height with the 04? And, also, they went to a different tire. Bridgestone Potenze RE050's wrap the 17" wheels now, has anyone compared these to the previous S02's, which were indeed a nice tire?
Handling was also addressed for the 04 model year by adding braces and such to reinforce the chassis to improve handling ability. Quote from one article "Honda claims improvements in overall stability, steering accuracy/effort/feel, bump steer characteristics, wet performance/hydroplaning, high-speed stability, smooth ride comfort, choppy ride comfort, and at the limit controllability"
Here are a couple exterior things that I'm just not sure that I like...one, being the taillights. I like the old design better.
2004 Tails
One "cool" characteristic I saw I liked was the ability to color match the center of the seats.
So, shall we have a good discussion on the changes and what was good/bad about the new and old?
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From: Lost Somewhere
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (lootchase)
Color match the center of the seats? I thought that is only available in japan and not here in the US. correct me if i am wrong????
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Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (swtxaznrac3r)
i think you are right about it only being an option in japan.. just remember we in the US always get left out..
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From: BeaveRun, PA, USA
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (03s2kblue)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by swtxaznrac3r »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Color match the center of the seats? I thought that is only available in japan and not here in the US. correct me if i am wrong????</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well that bites. It sure doesn't surprise me though. I would've just as quickly guessed that it would've been available in the states only because those pictures are S2K's that are left-hand drive. But, pictures aren't always accurate. Although it is cool that it goes as far into detail as matching the color of the Honda "H" on the steering wheel.
I personally don't know what they were thinking with the new tailights. They def. look like a cheesy altezza with the addition of the other red circle...maybe it's just me.
Well that bites. It sure doesn't surprise me though. I would've just as quickly guessed that it would've been available in the states only because those pictures are S2K's that are left-hand drive. But, pictures aren't always accurate. Although it is cool that it goes as far into detail as matching the color of the Honda "H" on the steering wheel.
I personally don't know what they were thinking with the new tailights. They def. look like a cheesy altezza with the addition of the other red circle...maybe it's just me.
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From: Savannah, GA, USA
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (ScreaminTeg)
I actually had the big decision about 4 months ago. I had the chance to buy an 03 with 8k for 26k or buy a new one for 31k. After reviewing everything, I liked the rawness of the 03 compared to the 04. Everyone always argues which one is better, and whether or not the new one is better or not. Personally, I like the 9k redline, suspension, and interior better. I do like the exterior of the 04 better though. I had a 00 s2k about 3 years ago and loved the feel of the engine and the rawness of the car. After driving the 04, it didn't have the same rawness that I had with my 00. So, I bought the 03. To each his own... Brandon
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From: TX
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years..
Comparison/Impressions at Texas World Speedway:
http://www.s2kca.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3852
note: Seats != tech talk.
http://www.s2kca.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3852
note: Seats != tech talk.
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From: BeaveRun, PA, USA
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (Mr. Bagel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. Bagel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Comparison/Impressions at Texas World Speedway:
http://www.s2kca.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3852
note: Seats != tech talk.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good reading there Mr. Bagel.
And yes, I know, seats might not be tech talk, but, I didn't want to leave out any details really.
http://www.s2kca.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3852
note: Seats != tech talk.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Good reading there Mr. Bagel.
And yes, I know, seats might not be tech talk, but, I didn't want to leave out any details really.
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From: Somewhere, AL, USA
overall, i'd still pick an '03 over an '04.
but do like certain things about the over over the '03:
-rear bumper and oval tips
-LED lights, but not the amber reflector or the look of the taillights when not turned on. the LED setup looks cheap. should've followed the inifiniti G cars or the Audi LEDs construction and material
-headlight design is fresher, but the JDM '03 headlight is equal in terms of looks
-center console is cool
-stock wheels look much bigger and better. 16" is for civics.
but do like certain things about the over over the '03:
-rear bumper and oval tips
-LED lights, but not the amber reflector or the look of the taillights when not turned on. the LED setup looks cheap. should've followed the inifiniti G cars or the Audi LEDs construction and material
-headlight design is fresher, but the JDM '03 headlight is equal in terms of looks
-center console is cool
-stock wheels look much bigger and better. 16" is for civics.
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From: Ohio
Re: (WRS2K)
Bottom line is the 04 model is a much improved daily driver over the previous years, mostly from the motor changes and tightened gear ratios 1-4. My family has a Silverstone 04, so ive been driving it around regularly since i sold my R... its a hell of a car for the price IMO. Looks much nicer with the larger wheels/tires, bumper changes, a bit more room inside, i like the LED tails too. The deminished redline is surely a negative, as it takes away from some excitement the 2.0 liter motor had, but power wise 04 feels stronger. Id consider an 03 for myself if i could slap on i/h/e and tune it for more midrange tq.
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From: Somewhere, AL, USA
Personally for me, I didn't buy an S2000 for its daily driver worthiness or punch off the line. 2.2 or 2.0, they're both torqueless wonders riddled with impracticality.
With that said, I personally think a Boxster S and Z4 3.0 drive a whole lot better for daily romps than the Honda. But what sets the F20C/F22C apart is the rawness channeled to the driver through the Honda F1 program.
And, IMO, the F20C engine and the chassis/suspension tuning aligns more closely with the MO of the S2000 than the more refined and softer F22C. The differences in lap times around a road course and auto-x track are neglible.
8K redline is for everyone else; the 9K reserved for the one and only.
P.S. I/H/E with or without tuning doesn't do no discernable ****. A strong stock setup would still make you think twice.
With that said, I personally think a Boxster S and Z4 3.0 drive a whole lot better for daily romps than the Honda. But what sets the F20C/F22C apart is the rawness channeled to the driver through the Honda F1 program.
And, IMO, the F20C engine and the chassis/suspension tuning aligns more closely with the MO of the S2000 than the more refined and softer F22C. The differences in lap times around a road course and auto-x track are neglible.
8K redline is for everyone else; the 9K reserved for the one and only.
P.S. I/H/E with or without tuning doesn't do no discernable ****. A strong stock setup would still make you think twice.
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From: BeaveRun, PA, USA
Re: (WRS2K)
You make great points WRS2K. I like hearing people's personal experience in the real world over some article that a "Professional" wrote in a magazine.
It seems as though most car mags and online sources are claiming the 04's to be more "tame" for the street, but with improvements in the gear ratios will provide better perfomance on the track. While both the 03 and the 04 are being very difficult for me to find, still torn, I am finding that I think the 2003 model is the way to go.
Like you, or someone on here said, it still offers the rawness that it was intended for, and is meant to do what it does best on the track while maintaining it's legalness for the streets. It's almost as though the S2000 needs to maintain that 9k rpm redline to distinguish itself from the previous Honda revving machines like the B16A and B18C5. Granted, those were in a different class altogether, until the S2K came along, that's what people had looked to for their high revving fun.
If only I could find an 03 Silverstone Metallic for the right price.....*crosses fingers in hopes of finding one before winter*
It seems as though most car mags and online sources are claiming the 04's to be more "tame" for the street, but with improvements in the gear ratios will provide better perfomance on the track. While both the 03 and the 04 are being very difficult for me to find, still torn, I am finding that I think the 2003 model is the way to go.
Like you, or someone on here said, it still offers the rawness that it was intended for, and is meant to do what it does best on the track while maintaining it's legalness for the streets. It's almost as though the S2000 needs to maintain that 9k rpm redline to distinguish itself from the previous Honda revving machines like the B16A and B18C5. Granted, those were in a different class altogether, until the S2K came along, that's what people had looked to for their high revving fun.
If only I could find an 03 Silverstone Metallic for the right price.....*crosses fingers in hopes of finding one before winter*
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From: TX
Re: (ScreaminTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScreaminTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You make great points WRS2K. I like hearing people's personal experience in the real world over some article that a "Professional" wrote in a magazine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I also dig the comments. Very true, no matter what they do to it, it will be a torqueless wonder indeed. I favor the unbiased opinions from those who have experiences, not those who are trying to capture an audience while keeping their sponsors/endorsers happy.
One other comment regarding the '04 - I cannot find the review, but Elistan on s2ki posted a review back in May regarding his 04 at the autocross vs. his heavily modded 00 - which he still has. It comes down to - 1) the '03 his gf drives is still much quicker with zero mods and nothing at all done to it. 2) 04's around an autocross will make you shift a lot more.
Other than that, I still don't think they've nailed down what the proper spring rates are for this car. Each year they swap between front heavy and rear heavy to equal all around. They are still tinkering. But once aftermarket adjustables are installed, you don't have to worry about that no matter what motor is under the hood.
I also dig the comments. Very true, no matter what they do to it, it will be a torqueless wonder indeed. I favor the unbiased opinions from those who have experiences, not those who are trying to capture an audience while keeping their sponsors/endorsers happy.
One other comment regarding the '04 - I cannot find the review, but Elistan on s2ki posted a review back in May regarding his 04 at the autocross vs. his heavily modded 00 - which he still has. It comes down to - 1) the '03 his gf drives is still much quicker with zero mods and nothing at all done to it. 2) 04's around an autocross will make you shift a lot more.
Other than that, I still don't think they've nailed down what the proper spring rates are for this car. Each year they swap between front heavy and rear heavy to equal all around. They are still tinkering. But once aftermarket adjustables are installed, you don't have to worry about that no matter what motor is under the hood.
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From: Laguna
Re: (WRS2K)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> With that said, I personally think a Boxster S and Z4 3.0 drive a whole lot better for daily romps than the Honda. But what sets the F20C/F22C apart is the rawness channeled to the driver through the Honda F1 program.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The s2000 has very disconnected steering feel compared to the Z4. On a track, there is much more feedback of what the car is doing through the steering wheel of the Z4 compared to the s2000, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the "rawness channeled to the driver through the Honda F1 program." The engine is a product of racing technology passed down into production, I would limit it to that only unless you think the tach is "rawness."
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And, IMO, the F20C engine and the chassis/suspension tuning aligns more closely with the MO of the S2000 than the more refined and softer F22C. The differences in lap times around a road course and auto-x track are neglible.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you're speaking from experience, I will question the tracks you attend and the auto-x you participate in. Stock for stock, the '04s are quicker than the previous years in both auto-x and road course. By saying the differences in lap times in both avenues is wrong.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
P.S. I/H/E with or without tuning doesn't do no discernable ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've told you already that 30+whp is more than "discernable ****" and that power is there from I/H/E with tuning a standalone.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The s2000 has very disconnected steering feel compared to the Z4. On a track, there is much more feedback of what the car is doing through the steering wheel of the Z4 compared to the s2000, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the "rawness channeled to the driver through the Honda F1 program." The engine is a product of racing technology passed down into production, I would limit it to that only unless you think the tach is "rawness."
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And, IMO, the F20C engine and the chassis/suspension tuning aligns more closely with the MO of the S2000 than the more refined and softer F22C. The differences in lap times around a road course and auto-x track are neglible.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you're speaking from experience, I will question the tracks you attend and the auto-x you participate in. Stock for stock, the '04s are quicker than the previous years in both auto-x and road course. By saying the differences in lap times in both avenues is wrong.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
P.S. I/H/E with or without tuning doesn't do no discernable ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've told you already that 30+whp is more than "discernable ****" and that power is there from I/H/E with tuning a standalone.
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From: Somewhere, AL, USA
I was not referring to just the steering feel. It's the whole package.
Give me some examples of current F22C drivers running consistently faster lap times than the F20C. Too many different setups, too many different drivers to say whether one is quicker than the other. Time may or may not tell. Negligible.
I still don't buy the 30+hp at the wheels with basic bolt ons and standalone ECU. Even if there were, not enough samplings. And the cost and time spent is rather silly.
I love it when amateur track "studs" step up and try to look down. Keep it real, man.
Give me some examples of current F22C drivers running consistently faster lap times than the F20C. Too many different setups, too many different drivers to say whether one is quicker than the other. Time may or may not tell. Negligible.
I still don't buy the 30+hp at the wheels with basic bolt ons and standalone ECU. Even if there were, not enough samplings. And the cost and time spent is rather silly.
I love it when amateur track "studs" step up and try to look down. Keep it real, man.
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From: Laguna
Re: (WRS2K)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was not referring to just the steering feel. It's the whole package.
Give me some examples of current F22C drivers running consistently faster lap times than the F20C. Too many different setups, too many different drivers to say whether one is quicker than the other. Time may or may not tell. Negligible.
I still don't buy the 30+hp at the wheels with basic bolt ons and standalone ECU. Even if there were, not enough samplings. And the cost and time spent is rather silly.
I love it when amateur track "studs" step up and try to look down. Keep it real, man. </TD></TR></TABLE>
your banter is getting annoying. You're making statements and giving opinions on something you really haven't experienced to be as "rawness" other than what your common sense tells you. Once you start driving a few auto-x courses and road courses in different cars, you'll realize what steering input and feel is about.
I stated already that stock for stock, the '04 is quicker than the previous model years and easier to drive at the limit. What else is there to argue about? tire pressures? alignment settings? There are no other variables when the same driver drives both cars on the same day on the same course with modified alignment settings and equal tire pressures.
Are you in denial? I own one of those previous model years and it doesn't bother me that honda made a better car but I think you have issues with the improvements in the s2000 for the '04 model year.
Get over it. Making a statement or opinion on the net is fine, but making an *** out of yourself while doing it is another thing. I'm not here to run my mouth like you do most of the time. If you disagree that 30+whp can't be gained with bolt ons and tuning via a standalone, that's fine but don't go around saying it's impossible.
Give me some examples of current F22C drivers running consistently faster lap times than the F20C. Too many different setups, too many different drivers to say whether one is quicker than the other. Time may or may not tell. Negligible.
I still don't buy the 30+hp at the wheels with basic bolt ons and standalone ECU. Even if there were, not enough samplings. And the cost and time spent is rather silly.
I love it when amateur track "studs" step up and try to look down. Keep it real, man. </TD></TR></TABLE>
your banter is getting annoying. You're making statements and giving opinions on something you really haven't experienced to be as "rawness" other than what your common sense tells you. Once you start driving a few auto-x courses and road courses in different cars, you'll realize what steering input and feel is about.
I stated already that stock for stock, the '04 is quicker than the previous model years and easier to drive at the limit. What else is there to argue about? tire pressures? alignment settings? There are no other variables when the same driver drives both cars on the same day on the same course with modified alignment settings and equal tire pressures.
Are you in denial? I own one of those previous model years and it doesn't bother me that honda made a better car but I think you have issues with the improvements in the s2000 for the '04 model year.
Get over it. Making a statement or opinion on the net is fine, but making an *** out of yourself while doing it is another thing. I'm not here to run my mouth like you do most of the time. If you disagree that 30+whp can't be gained with bolt ons and tuning via a standalone, that's fine but don't go around saying it's impossible.
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From: Somewhere, AL, USA
Simmer down, Mr. Moderator. Some people actually are enjoying reading my posts. And making an *** out of myself is something I might just be doing intentionally, but then it kinda makes some sense so.... hmmmmm...
And it doesn't take multiple runs at an auto-x track or road course to understand what feels good on the streets. I had my fair share of seat time in a lot of pretty cool cars so the input I'm providing is as or more realistic than your guys' input who get aroused by speed through your amateur pro driver fantasies even though in reality there's nothing at stake other than wrecking your far-from-pro-motorsports car (just like us regular Joes).
And if anyone's been keeping track of my posts (seems like many do), I could care less about getting into an '04 or any other Japanese car for that matter. I can't have hate for something I do not want and I've been around S2000s and its community long enough to know what's cool and what's not.
The '04s a great car, but to say it's a better performer than the F20C model is splitting hairs. Unless you're the typical track "stud" who get a rise out of thinking your thoughts are any better than a guy who has a more "renaissance" approach.
Try boxers next time.
And it doesn't take multiple runs at an auto-x track or road course to understand what feels good on the streets. I had my fair share of seat time in a lot of pretty cool cars so the input I'm providing is as or more realistic than your guys' input who get aroused by speed through your amateur pro driver fantasies even though in reality there's nothing at stake other than wrecking your far-from-pro-motorsports car (just like us regular Joes).
And if anyone's been keeping track of my posts (seems like many do), I could care less about getting into an '04 or any other Japanese car for that matter. I can't have hate for something I do not want and I've been around S2000s and its community long enough to know what's cool and what's not.
The '04s a great car, but to say it's a better performer than the F20C model is splitting hairs. Unless you're the typical track "stud" who get a rise out of thinking your thoughts are any better than a guy who has a more "renaissance" approach.
Try boxers next time.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Williston Park, NY, USA
Re: Tech talk about the 04 S2K and comparison to previous years.. (03s2kblue)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 03s2kblue »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you are right about it only being an option in japan.. just remember we in the US always get left out..</TD></TR></TABLE>
they also have it in canada...
they also have it in canada...
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From: Ohio
Re: (WRS2K)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRS2K »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Simmer down, Mr. Moderator. Some people actually are enjoying reading my posts. And making an *** out of myself is something I might just be doing intentionally, but then it kinda makes some sense so.... hmmmmm...
And it doesn't take multiple runs at an auto-x track or road course to understand what feels good on the streets. I had my fair share of seat time in a lot of pretty cool cars so the input I'm providing is as or more realistic than your guys' input who get aroused by speed through your amateur pro driver fantasies even though in reality there's nothing at stake other than wrecking your far-from-pro-motorsports car (just like us regular Joes).
And if anyone's been keeping track of my posts (seems like many do), I could care less about getting into an '04 or any other Japanese car for that matter. I can't have hate for something I do not want and I've been around S2000s and its community long enough to know what's cool and what's not.
The '04s a great car, but to say it's a better performer than the F20C model is splitting hairs. Unless you're the typical track "stud" who get a rise out of thinking your thoughts are any better than a guy who has a more "renaissance" approach.
Try boxers next time.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Seems like anytime someone expresses their opinions on the 04 model you immediately bash it and praise the 03. Saying the 04 model hasnt improved on the current S2k platform is ignorant, as honda has done a vast majority of improvements to make it an overall better car, both ON and OFF the track. My first post was merely to tell the thread starter that i think the 04 is a better daily driver and more livable, especially if you dont track the car... of which im willing to bet the vast majority of S2K owners dont.
And it doesn't take multiple runs at an auto-x track or road course to understand what feels good on the streets. I had my fair share of seat time in a lot of pretty cool cars so the input I'm providing is as or more realistic than your guys' input who get aroused by speed through your amateur pro driver fantasies even though in reality there's nothing at stake other than wrecking your far-from-pro-motorsports car (just like us regular Joes).
And if anyone's been keeping track of my posts (seems like many do), I could care less about getting into an '04 or any other Japanese car for that matter. I can't have hate for something I do not want and I've been around S2000s and its community long enough to know what's cool and what's not.
The '04s a great car, but to say it's a better performer than the F20C model is splitting hairs. Unless you're the typical track "stud" who get a rise out of thinking your thoughts are any better than a guy who has a more "renaissance" approach.
Try boxers next time.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Seems like anytime someone expresses their opinions on the 04 model you immediately bash it and praise the 03. Saying the 04 model hasnt improved on the current S2k platform is ignorant, as honda has done a vast majority of improvements to make it an overall better car, both ON and OFF the track. My first post was merely to tell the thread starter that i think the 04 is a better daily driver and more livable, especially if you dont track the car... of which im willing to bet the vast majority of S2K owners dont.
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Buckley, Wales, UK
Re: (Champ R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Champ R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Seems like anytime someone expresses their opinions on the 04 model you immediately bash it and praise the 03. Saying the 04 model hasnt improved on the current S2k platform is ignorant, as honda has done a vast majority of improvements to make it an overall better car, both ON and OFF the track. My first post was merely to tell the thread starter that i think the 04 is a better daily driver and more livable, especially if you dont track the car... of which im willing to bet the vast majority of S2K owners dont. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, according to Honda, the emphasis on the 04 was to improve road attitude and make it easier to drive at the limit. I know that the rear roll bar has been thinned and the roll centre reduced. Cant see there being more than 0.5sec on a track though. And the F20/22C is NOT a torqueless wonder. From 2 to 9k rpm (F20C) there is about 15% deviation in torque. That is absolutely incredible! What do you really expect from a NA 2.0 litre engine?
Seems like anytime someone expresses their opinions on the 04 model you immediately bash it and praise the 03. Saying the 04 model hasnt improved on the current S2k platform is ignorant, as honda has done a vast majority of improvements to make it an overall better car, both ON and OFF the track. My first post was merely to tell the thread starter that i think the 04 is a better daily driver and more livable, especially if you dont track the car... of which im willing to bet the vast majority of S2K owners dont. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, according to Honda, the emphasis on the 04 was to improve road attitude and make it easier to drive at the limit. I know that the rear roll bar has been thinned and the roll centre reduced. Cant see there being more than 0.5sec on a track though. And the F20/22C is NOT a torqueless wonder. From 2 to 9k rpm (F20C) there is about 15% deviation in torque. That is absolutely incredible! What do you really expect from a NA 2.0 litre engine?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: SF Penisula, CA
Re: (Champ R)
OK, let me chime in, since I actually own an 04, have driven the earlier cars many times, had the choice of buying new 03's or new 04's and went with the 04.
First off, you can get the two tone red/black interior in the US finally, but it's only available in the two silver's. Sadly it's not available with the red or black exterior colors, that would be awesome. But I love the looks of my Silverston Metallic with the red/black interior.
Second, the new car has vastly improved drivability and torque below 6k. The 2.0's really don't have much punch below 6k, the 2.2's will always walk away from them when rolling on below vtec. Above 6k, there really isn't much difference in performance on the road.
We had a Dyno day a few months back, my 04 and another one, both with right around 5k miles (still breaking in). Each car laid down 211rwhp right at 8200 rpms(fuel cut). The best number a 2.0 car made (with intake/exhaust/and VAFC) was about 205. Stock, the 2.0 normally lays down 195/200 or so. So Honda probably has underrated the engine in the 04's some. Figure probably 255/260hp.
Styling wise, I really like the changes made to the car for 04, with the exception of the factory front lip option, but then that's a person taste thing. The tail lights are amazing, the increased shoulder room is nice (I was borderline in the old cars), I love the 17 inch wheels too they give the car a much more aggressive stance, and like I mentioned before the two tone interior is awesome.
Other mechanical changes in the 04 include a revised gearbox with carbon fiber synchros for better feel and less grinding, a strengthened rear differential (a weak spot in the old car is do alot of clutch drops), and revised suspension, and revised gearing, in addition the 2.2 liter engine with a lower redline.
Alot of people call the new suspension softer than the previous cars. Well it's half true. The rear end had been softened a little, along with revised roll centers and changes to the geometry to minimize bumpsteer. But the Front end of the car has actually been stiffened. The changes combine to make a car that puts the power down much better in corners than the older one did, as well having a slightly more compliant ride (which is nice for a daily driver and to keep the wife happier).
Complaints about the 04? It really does feel like Honda dropped the redline a few hundred revs just before the car went into production, to preserve engine life. Between the shorter gearing and reduced redline, the car won't hit 60 in 2nd gear (I've tried). More than once I've been winding out the car only to find myself banging off the rev-limiter. I've never driven a car with a stock powertrain that pulled all the way to fuel cut without any drop in power.
On a faster nationals style autoX course the early cars with their longer gearing and higher redline have a bit of an advantage in places, where the new car needs a shift into 3rd and the old one can stay in 2nd. That is counterbalanced by the new car being more forgiving at the limit and having less of a tendancy to spin it's inside rear wheel leaving corners.
Also, if anyone drives an 04 that hasn't had it's alignment re-done is doing themselves a dis-service. from the factory the car comes with 0 front negative camber, which makes for a nice safe ride with loads of understeer. Get the car re-aligned and the legendary S2000 balance comes right back.
Have I rambled on enough?
In short, both the 04 and the 00-03's are amazing machines, capable of embarassing cars costing 10's of thousands more. It's all a matter of personal taste between the two, for me the 04 was the far better car for daily driving and autoX use.
Paul
First off, you can get the two tone red/black interior in the US finally, but it's only available in the two silver's. Sadly it's not available with the red or black exterior colors, that would be awesome. But I love the looks of my Silverston Metallic with the red/black interior.
Second, the new car has vastly improved drivability and torque below 6k. The 2.0's really don't have much punch below 6k, the 2.2's will always walk away from them when rolling on below vtec. Above 6k, there really isn't much difference in performance on the road.
We had a Dyno day a few months back, my 04 and another one, both with right around 5k miles (still breaking in). Each car laid down 211rwhp right at 8200 rpms(fuel cut). The best number a 2.0 car made (with intake/exhaust/and VAFC) was about 205. Stock, the 2.0 normally lays down 195/200 or so. So Honda probably has underrated the engine in the 04's some. Figure probably 255/260hp.
Styling wise, I really like the changes made to the car for 04, with the exception of the factory front lip option, but then that's a person taste thing. The tail lights are amazing, the increased shoulder room is nice (I was borderline in the old cars), I love the 17 inch wheels too they give the car a much more aggressive stance, and like I mentioned before the two tone interior is awesome.
Other mechanical changes in the 04 include a revised gearbox with carbon fiber synchros for better feel and less grinding, a strengthened rear differential (a weak spot in the old car is do alot of clutch drops), and revised suspension, and revised gearing, in addition the 2.2 liter engine with a lower redline.
Alot of people call the new suspension softer than the previous cars. Well it's half true. The rear end had been softened a little, along with revised roll centers and changes to the geometry to minimize bumpsteer. But the Front end of the car has actually been stiffened. The changes combine to make a car that puts the power down much better in corners than the older one did, as well having a slightly more compliant ride (which is nice for a daily driver and to keep the wife happier).
Complaints about the 04? It really does feel like Honda dropped the redline a few hundred revs just before the car went into production, to preserve engine life. Between the shorter gearing and reduced redline, the car won't hit 60 in 2nd gear (I've tried). More than once I've been winding out the car only to find myself banging off the rev-limiter. I've never driven a car with a stock powertrain that pulled all the way to fuel cut without any drop in power.
On a faster nationals style autoX course the early cars with their longer gearing and higher redline have a bit of an advantage in places, where the new car needs a shift into 3rd and the old one can stay in 2nd. That is counterbalanced by the new car being more forgiving at the limit and having less of a tendancy to spin it's inside rear wheel leaving corners.
Also, if anyone drives an 04 that hasn't had it's alignment re-done is doing themselves a dis-service. from the factory the car comes with 0 front negative camber, which makes for a nice safe ride with loads of understeer. Get the car re-aligned and the legendary S2000 balance comes right back.
Have I rambled on enough?
In short, both the 04 and the 00-03's are amazing machines, capable of embarassing cars costing 10's of thousands more. It's all a matter of personal taste between the two, for me the 04 was the far better car for daily driving and autoX use.
Paul
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: SF Penisula, CA
Re: (WRS2K)
Really? Look at the performance numbers for a base model Boxster, VS the S2K...15K more and way less performance...
The Z4 3.0 is close in a straight line, but falls way short on a road course/AutoX setting. And again it's way more money. Price a Z4 at close to MSRP of the S2000 and see where you get...2.5 and stripped...and despite the larger engine the Z4 is gonna get it's *** handed to it.
The Boxster S is arguably a better car, certainly they are equal in many respects, but again you are easily looking at 20K more.
The Z4 3.0 is close in a straight line, but falls way short on a road course/AutoX setting. And again it's way more money. Price a Z4 at close to MSRP of the S2000 and see where you get...2.5 and stripped...and despite the larger engine the Z4 is gonna get it's *** handed to it.
The Boxster S is arguably a better car, certainly they are equal in many respects, but again you are easily looking at 20K more.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,778
Likes: 1
From: BeaveRun, PA, USA
Re: (80's Boy)
Might I just add to this that regardless of opinions OR facts...this is a great debate!
There aren't too many threads on this whole site where you can find intelligent conversation/debate going on without your typical kiddy comments.
So far, all points made have been pretty valid, and stick up for both 04 and pre-04 models of the S2000.
I do think that it can be assumed that no matter what year model, all S2k's are unique and worth their money to have the driving experience, on and off, the track that it offers.
There aren't too many threads on this whole site where you can find intelligent conversation/debate going on without your typical kiddy comments.
So far, all points made have been pretty valid, and stick up for both 04 and pre-04 models of the S2000.
I do think that it can be assumed that no matter what year model, all S2k's are unique and worth their money to have the driving experience, on and off, the track that it offers.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere, AL, USA
Re: (80's Boy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 80’s Boy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Really? Look at the performance numbers for a base model Boxster, VS the S2K...15K more and way less performance...
The Z4 3.0 is close in a straight line, but falls way short on a road course/AutoX setting. And again it's way more money. Price a Z4 at close to MSRP of the S2000 and see where you get...2.5 and stripped...and despite the larger engine the Z4 is gonna get it's *** handed to it.
The Boxster S is arguably a better car, certainly they are equal in many respects, but again you are easily looking at 20K more.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
bah. i see you on the accountant/CPA style calcluations but in the end, that's just that.
if you're buying the $34K S2000 and sweatin' over the idea of spending $40-45K on a boxster or Z4, you're already stretching to buy the S2000.
and anyways, that extra $10-15gs buys you into the prestige (yes, it exists) and the the longer and better warranty service, a more scrumptious interior, etc.
the S2000 is NOT handing the boxster its *** in auto-x. and the Z4 just hasn't been around long enough. around a road course, it's pretty damn close. negligible.
Z4/boxster/S2000... all in the same level of performance. the s2000 just turns out to do it cheaper. but it still wears the same badge that makes the element, insight, civic, etc.
so it's not an outright winner. it's not embarrassing anything. embarrassing to me is Z06ing it. that car is embarrassing cars that cost twice as much. the s2000 is merely keeping up and showing an edge in a few areas which is a feat in and of itself.
and i might come from a biased position. if someone, today, offered me a new Z4 3.0 manual, a boxster S manual, or an S2000 F20C/F22C car.... i'd pick the boxster S first (lower it on 18" Techart GTs, add GT3 aerokit), Z4 second (install full Hartge aerokit, lower it on 19" BBS LMs), and the S2000 third (install full Honda aerokit, lower it on 18" RGRs
).
why? i'm tired of seeing riced out S2000s and they're showing up more and more as the prices dip. oh well, time to sell and get my soccer butt *** in an E39 M5 and leave you ricers who think toda power, c-west kits, ecu tuning, and big *** rolls bars as being the shiznit.
(yes, i'm hella shallow: i don't like dating anything less than trophy girlfriends and love checking out my 8 pack in front of the mirror at the gym)
The Z4 3.0 is close in a straight line, but falls way short on a road course/AutoX setting. And again it's way more money. Price a Z4 at close to MSRP of the S2000 and see where you get...2.5 and stripped...and despite the larger engine the Z4 is gonna get it's *** handed to it.
The Boxster S is arguably a better car, certainly they are equal in many respects, but again you are easily looking at 20K more.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
bah. i see you on the accountant/CPA style calcluations but in the end, that's just that.
if you're buying the $34K S2000 and sweatin' over the idea of spending $40-45K on a boxster or Z4, you're already stretching to buy the S2000.
and anyways, that extra $10-15gs buys you into the prestige (yes, it exists) and the the longer and better warranty service, a more scrumptious interior, etc.
the S2000 is NOT handing the boxster its *** in auto-x. and the Z4 just hasn't been around long enough. around a road course, it's pretty damn close. negligible.
Z4/boxster/S2000... all in the same level of performance. the s2000 just turns out to do it cheaper. but it still wears the same badge that makes the element, insight, civic, etc.
so it's not an outright winner. it's not embarrassing anything. embarrassing to me is Z06ing it. that car is embarrassing cars that cost twice as much. the s2000 is merely keeping up and showing an edge in a few areas which is a feat in and of itself.
and i might come from a biased position. if someone, today, offered me a new Z4 3.0 manual, a boxster S manual, or an S2000 F20C/F22C car.... i'd pick the boxster S first (lower it on 18" Techart GTs, add GT3 aerokit), Z4 second (install full Hartge aerokit, lower it on 19" BBS LMs), and the S2000 third (install full Honda aerokit, lower it on 18" RGRs
).why? i'm tired of seeing riced out S2000s and they're showing up more and more as the prices dip. oh well, time to sell and get my soccer butt *** in an E39 M5 and leave you ricers who think toda power, c-west kits, ecu tuning, and big *** rolls bars as being the shiznit.
(yes, i'm hella shallow: i don't like dating anything less than trophy girlfriends and love checking out my 8 pack in front of the mirror at the gym)