First off, I must say, I'm very happy with my decision to the get the lowdowns. I wasn't sure about how much they would improve the car on the track compared to stock, but they've done the job. I think suspension wise, I'm now set for a while.

So to all the folks who said Mugen wasn't worth it, I should've gone with something different, well, my personal experience tells me it was the right choice.

Now, with the warranty on the car about to run out in 6 months, I'd like to upgrade a couple of other components. Since all I do is track the car, I don't want to compromise relaibility. I just want to extract a few more horses (15whp) and would expect the car to perform well for the next few years.

So, the best way I can see is go with a H/E upgrade. Don't want to bother with cams, a different final drive, or mess the motor in any other way. H/E seems like the cleanest way to do what I want out of the car.

I searched the forums, hoping to get some info on the Mugen 4-1 header and twinloop, and there's a lot of putdown. Everyone seems to be saying go with a different choice. Why? Is it because the Mugen will not give you any gains, or is it because it's too pricey? I guess I'm a little biased because of my positive experience with the Lowdowns, but I'm open minded. If there's good reason to not get the Mugens (and spend almost $2K), I really want to hear it.

One good reason I can think of is, if there are no gains. If I spent 2 grand, and only gained 5HP, I'd be pretty pissed. Opinions welcome, especially from current and former Mugen parts owners.

 

mugen stuff is overpriced, overhyped, crap

the mugen header is crap. it's old technology that has been surpassed by even DC. it's also expensive.

the exhaust...i have no comment on. never run it, never even seen one in person...but if its' got a mugen lable on it...it's probally overpriced.

 

you know you want a supra

 

I'm in the same boat as you in terms of how you want to modify. You're on the right track with the H/E choices. Those, combined with cam gears and tuning, should allow you to reach your hp goals.

I personally would not buy the Mugen H/E simply because for the money, I'd rather have the SMSP setup. In terms of quality though, you really cant go wrong with Mugen. Hopefully someone can chime in with the actual performance numbers for the Mugen H/E

 

i would definatly go smsp H/E anyday of the week over mugen and im a certified mugen *****. I have the hood the mf-10's the side skirts and quite frankly i cant justifie buying the old header but i could justifie the exhaust, but if i bought a smsp header i want the exhaust to go with it. Althought, if i wanted a jdm bling header it's without a doubt gonna be toda, but thats after smsp or hytec and at a cheap used price if i do. the intake is on my list of next upgrades. Enjoy the lowdowns! Might i ask how much did you pay for them?

 

I had the Mugen catback.

Great sound and also a pretty unique exhaust design on the midpipe with a small 2.0in diameter from the catback to the absolutely GINORMOUS resonator *more on this later* and then 2.5in all the way into the accompanying muffler.

The resonator hangs so freaking low that even on my stock ride height R I managed to nick it a few times going all sideways and slow over moderately sized speed bumps.

It has since made it onto other local Type-Rs (I sold the system long ago) and I'm sure if anything, Mugen steel is very durable cuz it's probably been scraped more than a few times thereafter.

I feel the system is also very heavy and although it is at the lowest point of the car, the exhaust is typically a great place to lose weight...hence the titanium, thinwall SS you see these days.

If it was my money...I'd spend it on the drivetrain....JDM final drive, flywheel, clutch..... but that's just me.

 

Mugen makes alot of nice parts for our cars. However, you can certainly do better cost/HP wise then the Mugen exhaust. I've have a JUN 4-2-1 ,Spoon testpipe, w/ Spoon N1 exhaust and am very pleased with this setup for HP. It didn't do crap for a torque gain tho and is very noisey. A few weeks ago I changed it all over to a Stock JDM Header, carsound, w/Fujitsubo RM-01A exhaust. So quiet now!! Torque came back plus some. No change on HP from the JUN/Spoon setup. You can do whatever you want, it's your car.

mikehonda: who buys only what works, company name means very little

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRswapandslow. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mugen stuff is overpriced, overhyped, crap

the mugen header is crap. it's old technology that has been surpassed by even DC. it's also expensive.

the exhaust...i have no comment on. never run it, never even seen one in person...but if its' got a mugen lable on it...it's probally overpriced.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would hardly call Mugen products "crap", thats one of the most rediculous statements ive ever heard. Sure their 4-1 header may not perform as well as some of the custom headers out there, but remember this design has been on the market for over 5+ years now, well before a lot of newer designs have been released. With Mugen you get what you pay for, and thats craftsmanship, quality and performance. The Mugen intake is probably the best on the market for a DC2, and being a Twinloop owner myself, one of the best overall exhausts too. The whole overpriced, overhyped talk is mostly nonsense... you could make the same arguement that a Ferrari is a waste of money and piece of **** compared to a Corvette Z06, which at about 100 grand less is very comparable performance wise. But in the Ferrari you not only get the name, but the quality, uniqueness etc... Surely there are better products out there that outperform Mugen such as custom setups from SMSP and Hytech, but those arent exactly cheap either. Mugen suspensions and bushings are also some of the best out there. In the end you get what you pay for, and its up to you to decide.

 

mugen twin loop exhaust tubing is 2" in diam in the rear section.
better to stick with stock.
the 4-1 header isnt bad, as long as you get the jdm version, but if you are going
to spend that kind of money, theres better out there

 

mugen exhaust is 2" in the resonator section then goes to just under 2.5" in the rear/muffler section (60mm I beleive).

I've had the mugen exhaust for 4 years and I love it, I wouldnt have any other exhaust. I have made 206hp NA on stock cams through the mugen exhaust and also 350+hp with turbo through the same exhaust...not saying its the best but its definately up there with the best. I simply love the tip on the muffler and the way it looks when its on the car.

scott

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikehonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">am very pleased with this setup for HP. It didn't do crap for a torque gain tho</TD></TR></TABLE>

How can you increase horsepower without increasing torque? Horsepower is proportional to torque times revs. At any given revs, the only way you can increase horsepower is to increase torque...

 

i dont have anything against them but all i know is i dont prefer mugen..i do own the mugen thermo switch and it does work..but i guess mugen just never appealed to me at all..im more of a spoon man anyways(its an eg thing)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont have anything against them but all i know is i dont prefer mugen..i do own the mugen thermo switch and it does work..but i guess mugen just never appealed to me at all..im more of a spoon man anyways(its an eg thing) </TD></TR></TABLE>

a prime example?

Stupidity.

Get what works, not just a name.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Grip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont have anything against them but all i know is i dont prefer mugen..i do own the mugen thermo switch and it does work..but i guess mugen just never appealed to me at all..im more of a spoon man anyways(its an eg thing) </TD></TR></TABLE>
So ... wait a sec -- you're saying you don't buy Mugen because you prefer Spoon... yet you don't have any factual evidence to back up your assertions?

I don't think my friend BamBam was looking for opinions -- in fact it's clear that he asked for facts rather than mere opinion.

So -- what kind of empirical evidence do you have that demonstrates that Spoon parts would be a better solution to his desire to get more power out of a stock ITR motor?

BamBam: I was just talking to penpen about this and I think you may seriously want to consider a LW flywheel. Guaranteed gains throughout the rev range in every car application that I've heard of. Streetability would suffer a little, but that's not a major concern given our goals, my friend. I have a Toda LWFW on my list of parts for the Hachiroku.
-Chris (posting on penpen's account)

 

Most people hate them 'cuz they can't afford them.

Sure, Mugen parts are more expensive then others, but they work great and they fit right the first time. There is no mystery when you buy Mugen parts.

I would buy another lowdown or move up to N1 suspension, if I had another ITR to fix up. All my money now goes to TRD parts.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type R 98-870 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would definatly go smsp H/E anyday of the week over mugen and im a certified mugen *****. I have the hood the mf-10's the side skirts and quite frankly i cant justifie buying the old header but i could justifie the exhaust, but if i bought a smsp header i want the exhaust to go with it. Althought, if i wanted a jdm bling header it's without a doubt gonna be toda, but thats after smsp or hytec and at a cheap used price if i do. the intake is on my list of next upgrades. Enjoy the lowdowns! Might i ask how much did you pay for them?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Got the lowdowns brand new from King, $1550 shipped.

One reason why I'm leaning towards Mugen is the plug/play aspect. The lowdowns were so simple to install. No extra parts or mods were needed, it was simple drop in process.

I imagine the Mugen H/E to be the same, little hassle on the install, instead of some of these custom setups.

The high quality and craftsmanship are important too. It's not so much for the bling factor, which I don't much care for. The car will be tracked 10-12 times a year, and driven hard, so I'd like parts than take the abuse.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most people hate them 'cuz they can't afford them.

Sure, Mugen parts are more expensive then others, but they work great and they fit right the first time. There is no mystery when you buy Mugen parts.

I would buy another lowdown or move up to N1 suspension, if I had another ITR to fix up. All my money now goes to TRD parts. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You beat me to it! That's what I've been trying to say. Easy fit, high quality, and decent performance, if not the best.

But just because another combo might give an extra 5 horses, I'm sure something else will be sacrificed, so it seems like something always offsets another, no matter what you choose. Except with Mugen, the all around package seems to be the best.

 

i like my mooogen

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by penpen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't think my friend BamBam was looking for opinions -- in fact it's clear that he asked for facts rather than mere opinion.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hehe, we've gotten nice responses, but opinions don't really help here. Thanks for clarifying penpen!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by penpen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So -- what kind of empirical evidence do you have that demonstrates that Spoon parts would be a better solution to his desire to get more power out of a stock ITR motor?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, I haven't seen anything. It would be nice to have something that clearly shows data, such as dyno charts, that one part is better than the other.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by penpen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
BamBam: I was just talking to penpen about this and I think you may seriously want to consider a LW flywheel. Guaranteed gains throughout the rev range in every car application that I've heard of. Streetability would suffer a little, but that's not a major concern given our goals, my friend. I have a Toda LWFW on my list of parts for the Hachiroku.
-Chris (posting on penpen's account)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Chris, great idea, totally forgot about it. I think I may talk to Dave at R&D and see if I can get a Toda FW. I think it's going to a very busy off-season!

Once the warranty expires, I can do whatever I want!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by penpen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So ... wait a sec -- you're saying you don't buy Mugen because you prefer Spoon... yet you don't have any factual evidence to back up your assertions?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's right, data doesn't lie. I can't say the same for hype.

 

Everything sold by Mugen just plain sucks ***!!!

(I better clarify: I'm just trying to fit in with the majority here on Honda-Tech. Others said it sucks so I have to jump on the bandwagon yo!)

Having said that, it depends on which parts. Personally the resonator "issue" would prevent me from getting the mugen exhaust. IMO/experience the header is only decent. For the money, there are better header and exhaust selections. They make good suspensions and as stated above their intake is one of the best.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type R 98-870 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would definatly go smsp H/E anyday of the week over mugen and im a certified mugen *****.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You mention buying them used though. Do they ever sell on here used? I dont think ive ever seen one, even if it was 200 bucks cheaper i would undoubtibly go for it.

You can just tell by the design that it will give you the best flow possible. Whenever you think of stuff like exaust manifolds and pipes in general, just think of flow thats all. The easier the air can move out and the less friction it has, the better.

The design of that manifold is CLEARLY far superior from the rest. Hence its price. Craftmanship looks to be top notch too, although i can only offer you my opinion on that based on pictures. Ive never seen one in person.

I dont have any dyno results, but based on engineering pricipals, ya, you know where im going/saying again.

-nick

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRswapandslow. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mugen stuff is overpriced, overhyped, crap
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You get what you pay for.

Alot of the Mugen stuff is not worth the money and you can make better gains for the same (or sometimes less) money, but thats just for you to decide. I am using a mugen oil pan and the pedals, and if i had the $bling$bling$ I'd probably go with a set of Mugen N1 suspension setup.

Did you have anything productive to add or just stupid generalized statements?

 

First and foremost: buy what you want.

Mugen makes one of the best racing buckets on the market in it's S1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITRbroham &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">First and foremost: buy what you want.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah yes, words of wisdom

These are strictly MY opinions:

Mugen Lowdown: a bit overrated, more like glorified stock shocks with adj. damping IMO (I have them right now)
Mugen NZ dampers: oh, one can dream can't they?
Mugen twinloop exhaust: a bit heavy, perhaps slightly restrictive, but sure does sound great! plus undeniable quality of construction
Mugen N1 exhaust (like on MikeHonda's DC-5R): simply AWE-inspiring
Mugen strut tower bars: nicely made especially the first-gen version
Mugen intake: take a close look at the design, and the hand-laid fiberglass construction...it really does impress
Mugen wheels (NR10, M7, MF8, MF10, etc.) :heart: