k20a2 usdm si?
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From: wayne, nj
k20a2 usdm si?
is this info. correct and if it is im surprised and dissappointed, much like most current ep3 owners probably are.
http://www.vtec.net/modelmatrix/
http://www.vtec.net/modelmatrix/
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From: Miami, FL, USA
atleast most people with ep's now got a good deal on one , cause probably if the 05's come out with more power and better suspension honda will probably raise the msrp to and not negotiate as much as they did with the 02-04's
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From: Salisbury, NC, USA
Re: (ep3si02)
I seriously doubt this will happen.If you notice the Type-S is only supposed to get 210hp.Giving the Si 200hp will be the end of the RSX.Who's gonna buy a Type-S for $4k more and only get 10 extra hp.Both cars will probably stick with the HP thay have.Plus wasn't 04 supposed to be the last year of production for the EP3 or did they change their minds?
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From: Sunny, FL
Re: (stealthhatch)
I highly doubt it also. The EP3 won't get the a2 motor as it will compete against the RSX-S. Even at 19000 like the sticker price says, buyers who want performance will go for the EP3 instead of the RSX-S simply because 10 hp due to probably some ecu upgrade or exhaust upgrades can be counteracted by some simple bolt ons.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: k20a2 usdm si? (stealthhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stealthhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is this info. correct and if it is im surprised and dissappointed, much like most current ep3 owners probably are.
http://www.vtec.net/modelmatrix/</TD></TR></TABLE>
I could see it happening. A new Civic model based on CL7 theoretical chassis would be great.
http://www.vtec.net/modelmatrix/</TD></TR></TABLE>I could see it happening. A new Civic model based on CL7 theoretical chassis would be great.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (dwnshft02)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dwnshft02 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I seriously doubt this will happen.If you notice the Type-S is only supposed to get 210hp.Giving the Si 200hp will be the end of the RSX....Plus wasn't 04 supposed to be the last year of production for the EP3 or did they change their minds?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're forgetting that Honda USDM has had permission to market a car close to the DC5 Type S for quite some time. That's what gave people hope about an EP3 CTR making USDM.
I think that, yes, they did change their minds about shutting down the EP3.
Maybe we'll see a last gasp attempt to make money off of it the last year. Brembo brakes, further upgraded suspension and a K20A2 would certainly get a few more buyers, even if they have to sell at a premium price.
Personally, where I think they'll get me again is if the CL7 TSX Type S arrives.
You're forgetting that Honda USDM has had permission to market a car close to the DC5 Type S for quite some time. That's what gave people hope about an EP3 CTR making USDM.
I think that, yes, they did change their minds about shutting down the EP3.
Maybe we'll see a last gasp attempt to make money off of it the last year. Brembo brakes, further upgraded suspension and a K20A2 would certainly get a few more buyers, even if they have to sell at a premium price.
Personally, where I think they'll get me again is if the CL7 TSX Type S arrives.
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Re: (Gabe_)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gabe_ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I for one, would welcome a better performing Si. Everything about it sounds cool, except for the bigger part... EP's are mammoths as is.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed. The EP3 is already too large and too heavy for its own good. I don't care to see a larger, heavier, $20k+ Civic.
Agreed. The EP3 is already too large and too heavy for its own good. I don't care to see a larger, heavier, $20k+ Civic.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (jimmyjames)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jimmyjames »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Agreed. The EP3 is already too large and too heavy for its own good. I don't care to see a larger, heavier, $20k+ Civic.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Larger doesn't have to mean heavier, as long as the design criteria can be met w/lower weight.
Most people would perceive that the DC5 is larger than the EP3, but the weight is about the same.
Agreed. The EP3 is already too large and too heavy for its own good. I don't care to see a larger, heavier, $20k+ Civic.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Larger doesn't have to mean heavier, as long as the design criteria can be met w/lower weight.
Most people would perceive that the DC5 is larger than the EP3, but the weight is about the same.
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Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Larger doesn't have to mean heavier, as long as the design criteria can be met w/lower weight.
Most people would perceive that the DC5 is larger than the EP3, but the weight is about the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, even if you throw the whole weight thing out the window... the EP is GIANT when compared to other honda hatchbacks. I feel funny when I park next to my friend's EG's.
Most people would perceive that the DC5 is larger than the EP3, but the weight is about the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, even if you throw the whole weight thing out the window... the EP is GIANT when compared to other honda hatchbacks. I feel funny when I park next to my friend's EG's.
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From: wayne, nj
Re: (Gabe_)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gabe_ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well, even if you throw the whole weight thing out the window... the EP is GIANT when compared to other honda hatchbacks. I feel funny when I park next to my friend's EG's.</TD></TR></TABLE>
the only big thing about the ep is the height, it's actually a shorter wheel base then ep/ek's. but wider is better. the car would only handle that much better, and with double wishbones, it'll be the best honda release todate(besides the ap1). i just think the ep's should have been this way since they first came out.
Well, even if you throw the whole weight thing out the window... the EP is GIANT when compared to other honda hatchbacks. I feel funny when I park next to my friend's EG's.</TD></TR></TABLE>
the only big thing about the ep is the height, it's actually a shorter wheel base then ep/ek's. but wider is better. the car would only handle that much better, and with double wishbones, it'll be the best honda release todate(besides the ap1). i just think the ep's should have been this way since they first came out.
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From: Sunny, FL
Re: (stealthhatch)
ummmmm...
best Honda release to date...? What about the new NSX?
I highly doubt that they would put front and rear dwb on the new Civic, simply because that would require making use of the accord chassis...
I don't think Honda will spend the money researching a new chassis for one more year of the EP3.
best Honda release to date...? What about the new NSX?
I highly doubt that they would put front and rear dwb on the new Civic, simply because that would require making use of the accord chassis...
I don't think Honda will spend the money researching a new chassis for one more year of the EP3.
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From: Sunny, FL
Re: (stealthhatch)
The Preludes were pretty good releases also...
SH can out handle an ITR; if you're talking in handling terms.
4th Gen VTECs were light and powerful. ~2700lbs with 195crankrated hp engine.
Also had 4WS.
The AP1 uses a modified Prelude engine.
Please don't use absolute terms when describing a car. "the best" or "to date" is never appropriate.
SH can out handle an ITR; if you're talking in handling terms.
4th Gen VTECs were light and powerful. ~2700lbs with 195crankrated hp engine.
Also had 4WS.
The AP1 uses a modified Prelude engine.
Please don't use absolute terms when describing a car. "the best" or "to date" is never appropriate.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (Kal)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kal »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SH can out handle an ITR; if you're talking in handling terms.
4th Gen VTECs were light and powerful. ~2700lbs with 195crankrated hp engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think this is going to depend on the venue.
The G4 Prelude is a very stable platform, but it's not going to outhandle an ITR stock for stock.
Modified w/suspensions, the G4 Prelude and the ITR will each have advantages, and it will depend on what course and what drivers are involved as to which car will win.
As for the motors, I think the H22 has always been under rated.
Even when modified for track use or the Honda Challenge, it seems that there is an RPM range at high speeds where the H22 seems to be able to outperform some very well built B18. The H22 just carries more torque at some speeds and the B18 driver has a bit of a struggle getting through the corners well enough that the H22 driver won't be able to catch him somewhere.
It's an interesting contest, and I don't think we'll be able to settle an argument here. The H22 vs B18 and VTEC Prelude vs ITR debate will probably never be settled: They're all obsolete and everybody's into K motors and about to hop to different chassis.
We'll see them racing for a few more years, sure, but nobody's going to be dumping the money into them to really tell us which platform is or was "better"
.
4th Gen VTECs were light and powerful. ~2700lbs with 195crankrated hp engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think this is going to depend on the venue.
The G4 Prelude is a very stable platform, but it's not going to outhandle an ITR stock for stock.
Modified w/suspensions, the G4 Prelude and the ITR will each have advantages, and it will depend on what course and what drivers are involved as to which car will win.
As for the motors, I think the H22 has always been under rated.
Even when modified for track use or the Honda Challenge, it seems that there is an RPM range at high speeds where the H22 seems to be able to outperform some very well built B18. The H22 just carries more torque at some speeds and the B18 driver has a bit of a struggle getting through the corners well enough that the H22 driver won't be able to catch him somewhere.
It's an interesting contest, and I don't think we'll be able to settle an argument here. The H22 vs B18 and VTEC Prelude vs ITR debate will probably never be settled: They're all obsolete and everybody's into K motors and about to hop to different chassis.
We'll see them racing for a few more years, sure, but nobody's going to be dumping the money into them to really tell us which platform is or was "better"
.
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Re: (jimmyjames)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jimmyjames »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I don't care to see a larger, heavier, $20k+ Civic </TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe not you and I, but remember, the marketing people provide feedback to engineers about what to design based on 95% of all the owners out there. The few hundred (or even thousand) H-T'ers who autocross, road race, and even drag, represent a *very-very small* portion of what some owners do with the MILLIONS of Hondas out there. The Civic is rapidly becoming the Accord of 10 years ago, and the USDM Accord is becoming a Crown Victoria of sorts with regards to size, power, and comfort... Five bucks says the Camry will be doing the same at its next redesign.
Face it, the market is shifting. Technology makes the cars more powerful ,and yet efficient, than ever without requiring 2300lb curb weights; small displacement, high revving engines; and spartan interiors.
As hard as it may be to accept, we don't account for anything.
You want a new factory performance car, you must either buy an S2000, or search elsewhere, like Subaru, Mazda, Toyota, or dare I say...Dodge. (I left off the NSX because most people on these boards can't afford new ones, which seems to be the basis of this thread.)
Don't forget the Toyota powered Elise at $40k
, a two year old Z06 , or an Elise with the Honda motors (through Prototype racing) .
Or buy a good used car and take advantage of that.
Anthony "Mario" Crea
Maybe not you and I, but remember, the marketing people provide feedback to engineers about what to design based on 95% of all the owners out there. The few hundred (or even thousand) H-T'ers who autocross, road race, and even drag, represent a *very-very small* portion of what some owners do with the MILLIONS of Hondas out there. The Civic is rapidly becoming the Accord of 10 years ago, and the USDM Accord is becoming a Crown Victoria of sorts with regards to size, power, and comfort... Five bucks says the Camry will be doing the same at its next redesign.
Face it, the market is shifting. Technology makes the cars more powerful ,and yet efficient, than ever without requiring 2300lb curb weights; small displacement, high revving engines; and spartan interiors.
As hard as it may be to accept, we don't account for anything.
You want a new factory performance car, you must either buy an S2000, or search elsewhere, like Subaru, Mazda, Toyota, or dare I say...Dodge. (I left off the NSX because most people on these boards can't afford new ones, which seems to be the basis of this thread.)
Don't forget the Toyota powered Elise at $40k
, a two year old Z06 , or an Elise with the Honda motors (through Prototype racing) .Or buy a good used car and take advantage of that.
Anthony "Mario" Crea
I said I don't want a title!
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From: OH
Re: (Kal)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SH can out handle an ITR; if you're talking in handling terms.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Let's be serious here--no way no how in no circumstance will a stock SH ever be close to outhandling a stock ITR. The Prelude is an overweight, front heavy pig with a crappy form of an LSD.
As for the rest, honda93 is correct--gone are the days of the lightweight, double-wishbone Hondas it seems. That is, until gas goes up to $5/gallon and Manufactures are forced to build smaller cars again. But then we'll see a bunch of damn hybrids running around.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Let's be serious here--no way no how in no circumstance will a stock SH ever be close to outhandling a stock ITR. The Prelude is an overweight, front heavy pig with a crappy form of an LSD.
As for the rest, honda93 is correct--gone are the days of the lightweight, double-wishbone Hondas it seems. That is, until gas goes up to $5/gallon and Manufactures are forced to build smaller cars again. But then we'll see a bunch of damn hybrids running around.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (Todd00)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
... with a crappy form of an LSD.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Come to think of it, the G4 VTEC Preludes that I've seen didn't even have an LSD as OEM.
... with a crappy form of an LSD.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Come to think of it, the G4 VTEC Preludes that I've seen didn't even have an LSD as OEM.
I said I don't want a title!
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From: OH
Re: (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Come to think of it, the G4 VTEC Preludes that I've seen didn't even have an LSD as OEM.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope. The only true LSDs that Honda put in their 'older' FWD cars was in the ITR and the CL Type-S. The 4th gen Lude had an open diff as did the 5th gen lude, although the SH unfortunately got that POS ATTS system.
Come to think of it, the G4 VTEC Preludes that I've seen didn't even have an LSD as OEM.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope. The only true LSDs that Honda put in their 'older' FWD cars was in the ITR and the CL Type-S. The 4th gen Lude had an open diff as did the 5th gen lude, although the SH unfortunately got that POS ATTS system.
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Re: (stealthhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stealthhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
but wider is better.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Um, no. LIGHTER is better. Check out the Elise if you want proof. Lighter means faster, better handling, better braking and better fuel economy.
The EP3 is already a pig. It doesn't need to grow any more.
but wider is better.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Um, no. LIGHTER is better. Check out the Elise if you want proof. Lighter means faster, better handling, better braking and better fuel economy.
The EP3 is already a pig. It doesn't need to grow any more.