B00st = good ... but will it be good for World Challenge T-C?

I picked up a copy of the F.I. intro. memo yesterday at Mid-Ohio and gave it a good read. Very interesting.

notes:
-"sport compact market has shifted" "TCC must remain adaptable with the market in order to remain relevant with the fans"
-4 or less cylinders
-Turbo or S/C
-must be produced and sold publicly with FI (no kits)
-required use of engine management system
-stock driveline/turbo-SC/power plant must be used
-max allowed boost levels may be lower than stock levels
-required use of data logging system
-$1600 homologation fee
-STACK data logging system to ensure parity (leased for $1600/yr)
-2004: can compete in the last 4 events (sanctioned and non-sanctioned practice events)
-2005: will be eligible for points... but preformance will be adjusted to suit SCCA tech staff
-2006: full integration with equal performance among n/a cars.


(STI/EVO/SRT-4/what else?)

 

I believe Irish Mike said he will have a 2.0T WRX ready to for when/if this decision comes through.
Im willing to bet that turbo cars will be too crippled to even stand a chance.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe Irish Mike said he will have a 2.0T WRX ready to for when/if this decision comes through.
Im willing to bet that turbo cars will be too crippled to even stand a chance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the CTS-V was any indication, I'd imagine that Subaru is well enough off with SCCA that they should be able to get a competitive car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe Irish Mike said he will have a 2.0T WRX ready to for when/if this decision comes through.</TD></TR></TABLE> there was a blue WRX at Road Atlanta for the drift/non-points event... but I did not get a close look at it. I think it was N/A like the current Benz's (both of which croaked at Mid-Ohio during qualifying) are.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im willing to bet that turbo cars will be too crippled to even stand a chance.</TD></TR></TABLE> the performance adjustments can also add power to help level the field.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If the CTS-V was any indication, I'd imagine that Subaru is well enough off with SCCA that they should be able to get a competitive car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You think the politcs in SWC sucks now wait until they allow TC cars. It's skyrocket the costs.

I think they should leave it as is. The only cars that currently can't run are the WRX and EVO. Why re-write the whole rule book for two cars/

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

 

Subaru's not running a fully factory supported mega-budget team like Cadillac either...

Willard, you were probably looking at the Irish Mike's car now, it's WRX-blue this year.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You think the politcs in SWC sucks now wait until they allow TC cars. It's skyrocket the costs.

I think they should leave it as is. The only cars that currently can't run are the WRX and EVO. Why re-write the whole rule book for two cars/

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well there's the SRT Neon, Mini Cooper S, Saab 9-3/9-2, Audi A4, Volkswagen Jetta, that will benefit from this rule. Still, Im not entirely sure their admission will be good for TC.

I think the rules should specify 2.0L and under for turbo cars. SCCA Pro also has to be careful that the turbo cars don't cause horsepower creep across the board.

I'm of the opinion that while including turbo cars may make a welcome addition in variety, World Challenge's biggest shortcoming is advertising. I NEVER see any commercials for WC on the damned title sponsor's channel and they do zero advertising on the webboards where there is literally 10's of thousands of sport compact enthusiasts. This year WC has gotten a lot more magazine play and Drift Atlanta was a good idea but it kinda chaffs me that they don't do as much as they could. I suppose like everything else it has to do with money.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the CTS-V was any indication, I'd imagine that Subaru is well enough off with SCCA that they should be able to get a competitive car. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What part of "Irish Mike's" includes Subaru of America? Irish Mikes is not a factory supported car.
They have been running N/A 2.5RS on and off for the past year and a half.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SCCA Pro also has to be careful that the turbo cars don't cause horsepower creep across the board.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-stock driveline/turbo-SC/power plant must be used
-max allowed boost levels may be lower than stock levels</TD></TR></TABLE>
given the already high HP levels of the Acuras and some of the other cars, stock turbos with lower than stock boost isnt going to pump up HP at all

 

Boost lower than stock levels? Wha? So I can't crank a 1.8T VW/Audi motor to 17 PSI?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What part of "Irish Mike's" includes Subaru of America? Irish Mikes is not a factory supported car.
They have been running N/A 2.5RS on and off for the past year and a half.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Way to completely miss the point. There are competitive privateer teams in World Challenge who I'm sure would look at the WRX, don't you think Subaru would like to influence the rules so that anyone who runs one of those can be competitive? Or am I missing the part in the rule book that says only Irish Mike can drive an Impreza?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SCCA Pro also has to be careful that the turbo cars don't cause horsepower creep across the board.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The STACK system will record the boost levels (creep level included) and relay the info to those who want to know.

The boost level 'may' be lower than stock and it 'may' be higher than stock... just depends on the results of the testing.

 

Not sure if it qualifies or not, but Scion TC with the dealer installed supercharger could be fun.

Scott

 

Ack - kill this idea before it breeds.

K

 

The SCCA has stated in the past that any cars running boost must supply the SCCA with real time telemetry so the SCCA can monitor the boost levels of the cars. In the past this has meant no boost past 1 bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You think the politcs in SWC sucks now wait until they allow TC cars. It's skyrocket the costs.
Jon P. Kofod
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wait a minute; getting 250 - 300 HP out of a naturally aspirated 4 banger costs huge bucks to devolop and the engines need frequent freshening. The rules specify 'stock' turbo engines, thus the initial costs are less and the motor should go the whole season. Could encourage more privateers which would be good. The key will be SCCA's management of it.... Hmmm, nevermind. Turbos in SWC TC will likely be a cluster fu@& if success depends on SCCA tech!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wait a minute; getting 250 - 300 HP out of a naturally aspirated 4 banger costs huge bucks to devolop and the engines need frequent freshening. The rules specify 'stock' turbo engines, thus the initial costs are less and the motor should go the whole season. Could encourage more privateers which would be good. The key will be SCCA's management of it.... Hmmm, nevermind. Turbos in SWC TC will likely be a cluster fu@& if success depends on SCCA tech!</TD></TR></TABLE>

My main concern is that they will fudge the rules to get cars in. Look at how far they went in GT class to get Caddy in the ball game.

Result: a Caddy went from last on the grid at Sebring (Pilgrims stalled Caddy) to second in a 45 minute race and was at least 3 seconds per lap faster. In addition GT class lost the PTG boys who told SCCA they would leave for Grand Am if the Caddies were given all these breaks.

Hopefully SCCA learned from this, but I think they will do whatever it takes to get certain car makes into the field like they did with Caddy.

I don't mind if they let the TC cars in as long as they keep costs down. It's cool watching people I race with or am friends with racing in WSC. I don't want it to become a factory series raced by professional racers only, which is where many grassroots series end up when cars are given free reigng.

Guess I am just being paranoid but I remember when IMSA was a privateer class in the early 80's and turned into a Toyota/Nissan battle that killed it off.

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elgorey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">given the already high HP levels of the Acuras and some of the other cars, stock turbos with lower than stock boost isnt going to pump up HP at all</TD></TR></TABLE>

I actually think the horsepower levels are already too high as evidenced by the blown engines and the high cost of development (I've heard some absolutely silly money numbers for the BMW engines).

I'd be interested to see how a car like the STi or Evo is going to be shoehorned into touring. Imo those two cars a bit too much for touring but I guess we'll see.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd be interested to see how a car like the STi or Evo is going to be shoehorned into touring. Imo those two cars a bit too much for touring but I guess we'll see.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Aren't those two cars already classified in GT? I don't recall either of them being mentioned as potential FI Touring cars in the original press release, and I don't think they fit the spirit of the rules anyway. WRX and Lancer Ralliart, yes, STi Evo, no.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My main concern is that they will fudge the rules to get cars in. Look at how far they went in GT class to get Caddy in the ball game.

Result: a Caddy went from last on the grid at Sebring (Pilgrims stalled Caddy) to second in a 45 minute race and was at least 3 seconds per lap faster. In addition GT class lost the PTG boys who told SCCA they would leave for Grand Am if the Caddies were given all these breaks.

Hopefully SCCA learned from this, but I think they will do whatever it takes to get certain car makes into the field like they did with Caddy.

I don't mind if they let the TC cars in as long as they keep costs down. It's cool watching people I race with or am friends with racing in WSC. I don't want it to become a factory series raced by professional racers only, which is where many grassroots series end up when cars are given free reigng.

Guess I am just being paranoid but I remember when IMSA was a privateer class in the early 80's and turned into a Toyota/Nissan battle that killed it off.

Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think there is a very real danger of messing up the classing just to allow some new cars in, much the same as the Cadillac situation. I sincerely hope they learned their lesson with that fiasco

I'm not particularly worried about WC becoming a series where only pro racers roam, if there are enough of them for a good show. But I imagine what you're getting at is that factory involvement could wreck the series and you're right. That's why they absolutely MUST keep costs under control because there just isn't enough money to sustain a strong grid if it costs $150k to put together a season. The engine spec needs to be dialed back because it is already massively inflating the cost to run. Then there's the relocated suspension mounting points, MoTEC, and ChroMoly cages pumping up costs even more.

Anyway there is a lot of potential for success and a lot of potential for failure with WCTC. I sincerely hope for the former.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My main concern is that they will fudge the rules to get cars in. Look at how far they went in GT class to get Caddy in the ball game.
Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>

At least SCCA didn't waste much time reeling in the Caddys after Sebring. A gift of 200lbs, intake restriction and lower rev limit appear to have equalized the Caddys for now...or they may be just sandbagging until the end of the season.

I don't think turbos are as hard to equalize as AWD is. Look how the Audis simply cruised at Mid Ohio. It wasn't until the last lap that Heinricy even had a chance.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's why they absolutely MUST keep costs under control because there just isn't enough money to sustain a strong grid if it costs $150k to put together a season. </TD></TR></TABLE>

After looking over the car Willard and TrackRat were helping with this weekend, I don't see how it could be close to being under $150k to put together a season. But it sure is nice looking at the pimpy ventilated pistons on the Brembo calipers

Brian

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brian*Blue95M3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After looking over the car Willard and TrackRat were helping with this weekend, I don't see how it could be close to being under $150k to put together a season. But it sure is nice looking at the pimpy ventilated pistons on the Brembo calipers

Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>

Take a look at a team like Turner or Realtime to see that kind of money. $150k is not the norm yet but it could get there if no one reigns things in. I don't know what the Sunbelt Mazda engines cost but I know they don't last the whole season. Add to that the $4k shocks, $10k in electronics, multipoint cage, $1-$2k on brakes, a couple thou on wheels, a couple thou on tires and you've got a tidy sum of money to run World Challenge, not even including travel, testing, and bent or broken cars.

One thing that must be noted though is that some of the teams in WC waste a ton of money on the support side. Hotel rooms, food, big *** pimp trailer, and such can needlessly consume an inordinantly large amount of the budget.

EDIT: Editing redudancy edit

 

I think we're on the same side, I dont see how you could do a season for less than $150k, everything included

Brian

 

For the top teams to build a touring class car costs $130,000 to $150,000. That's the cost of the car ONLY. Will Turner says he has at least $130,000 in each of his cars so if you do the math, the budget has to be at least $150-$170 for the season including the car but propbably closer to $200K.

The backmarkers spend much less but then again that's why they are backmarkers.

Regards,

Jon

 

150k is what you should plan on just for entry fees, engine and tranny rebuilds, replacement parts, tires, fuel, travel & crew expenses etc. (not counting the car, hauler, tools and other essential equipment).