I have never had a chance to take my car to the track, but plan to when I get out of college and have another daily driver besides my hatch.

Anyways I am just wondering how this happened so radically? It didnt seem as though he was going that fast at all, but somehow the tail slides really quick and he looses control.

Did he not counter steer fast enough or what?

I know most have probably seen this if you visit ebaumsworld.com

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/rollover.mpg

 

I think has been discussed before... but IMO, he was preoccupied with other stuff (his missed shift, following the porsche), drifted to the middle of the track before turn in, went in too hot, went in too early, then lifted and spun.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think has been discussed before... but IMO, he was preoccupied with other stuff (his missed shift, following the porsche), drifted to the middle of the track before turn in, went in too hot, went in too early, then lifted and spun.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Ohh ok my bad man......just scrolling through ebaumsworld and found this.

Since I have never had my car on the track, it kinda concerned me to see how easy this could happen or so it seemed in the vid

 

Don't worry. You can drive as fast as you want to drive.

Most organizations (that I know of) have instructors for newbs, who can point out when you are going to do something stupid. First move would have been to make the driver pit and let the "red mist" pass on (from the Porsche)...aka he was "Racing" the Porsche, something pretty easy to let yourself do.


Modified by GSpeedR at 5:27 PM 6/17/2004

 

Go off sideways=roll-over an awful large %age of the time. Esp. when its at high speeds.
That was a pretty smooth, sedate roll over. Not violent or flipping multiple times. Still, a roll cage would be highly advised.
If you are even close to fast enough where you think you might need one, you need one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Go off sideways=roll-over an awful large %age of the time. Esp. when its at high speeds.
That was a pretty smooth, sedate roll over. Not violent or flipping multiple times. Still, a roll cage would be highly advised.
If you are even close to fast enough where you think you might need one, you need one.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the reply's. And yes it's common sense that most of time when you are at a high speed and go off into grass/dirt that you will roll.

That wasnt my question. My initial question was, "How on earth did the tail slide out that fast, at what seemed to be not that high of a speed for the corner, w/out him being able to regain control the least bit.

However, the two previous posts answered my question

 

it probably could have been saved.

once he started the slide, instead of accelerating, he lifted off the throttle. the combo of a slight loose condition and a full throttle lift at a moderate speed caused the spin (weight shift completley forward off of the rear wheels that were already slipping. the grass caused the roll.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dohcVTEChatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thanks for the reply's. And yes it's common sense that most of time when you are at a high speed and go off into grass/dirt that you will roll.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, he most likely wouldn't have rolled if he went off while going straight. Going off sideways is what did it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dohcVTEChatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thanks for the reply's. And yes it's common sense that most of time when you are at a high speed and go off into grass/dirt that you will roll.

That wasnt my question. My initial question was, "How on earth did the tail slide out that fast, at what seemed to be not that high of a speed for the corner, w/out him being able to regain control the least bit.

However, the two previous posts answered my question </TD></TR></TABLE>

Do a search on the Internet and within here on weight transfer and oversteer. There are also some great books that can help describe weight transfer (Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry A. Watts (Chapter C, especially)... it is about $10 bucks on Amazon... great beginning book to read to understand car dynamics).

Basically the rear of the car lost traction (by lifting off the gas) and he spun. To regain traction in the rear you transfer weight to the rear, by accelerating. There are differences between FWD, RWD and AWD, but concept is basically the same.

 

That was an Instructor driving a student's car, as well!

 

DAVIDNYC:

Thanks, Yea Kamin did a pretty good job at explaining it. The main reason I was baffeled was because he took his foot completely off teh gas, which I didnt consider when I watched it.

And to the guy above you........stop nitpickin, thats what I meant

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dohcVTEChatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DAVIDNYC:

Thanks, Yea Kamin did a pretty good job at explaining it. The main reason I was baffeled was because he took his foot completely off teh gas, which I didnt consider when I watched it.

And to the guy above you........stop nitpickin, thats what I meant </TD></TR></TABLE>

I am by no means an expert because i do have limited on-track experience but that is what it looks like from watching it many times.

morale of the story, dont lift in corners

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That was an Instructor driving a student's car, as well! </TD></TR></TABLE>

No it wasnt.

Where the hell did you hear that?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No it wasnt.
Where the hell did you hear that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was the scuttlebut at the time, you know any different, RJ.?

P.S. Why do you think he was "instructing" or verbally going on about the corners till he F'd up!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That was the scuttlebut at the time, you know any different, RJ.? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, the owner of the car has a webpage up about the incident, and is on 2 other boards that I read.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, the owner of the car has a webpage up about the incident, and is on 2 other boards that I read.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry to prolong the thread, but do you have the link?

Thanks

 

I'm going to bed, i'll try to find it tomorrow.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Kamin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it probably could have been saved.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm a bit leary to think we can know sitting here if this is the case or not. I guess in a vaccum, of-course it could be saved by not being out there but aside from that?? I must have a crappy sound card as I am not hearing any significant change in throttle that you guys are as for lifting. I do notice that a.) he's entering the turn significantly faster than the 9elemen, and b.) that the 911 seems to get loose in the same spot where this driver loses the rear end and c.) he seems to be countering as soon as it starts around but it was too far to catch up to. It could have just been bad luck (series of unfortunate events). And for the talking on video, I have met a lot of guys that do that as a way to indicate to themselves what they knew they did right and wrong when they review.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm a bit leary to think we can know sitting here if this is the case or not. I guess in a vaccum, of-course it could be saved by not being out there but aside from that?? I must have a crappy sound card as I am not hearing any significant change in throttle that you guys are as for lifting. I do notice that a.) he's entering the turn significantly faster than the 9elemen, and b.) that the 911 seems to get loose in the same spot where this driver loses the rear end and c.) he seems to be countering as soon as it starts around but it was too far to catch up to. It could have just been bad luck (series of unfortunate events). And for the talking on video, I have met a lot of guys that do that as a way to indicate to themselves what they knew they did right and wrong when they review. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That was an Instructor driving a student's car, as well! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Let's not go spreading rumors.

I know for a fact that he (Pat) was not an instructor at the time, as I had him as a student at VIR the following year. It was his own car (a Subaru sedan of some sort) which he replaced with a similar model after the crash.

He was (and probably still is) a very quick and talented driver. The crash probably was a combination of very quick driver + not much experience at the time. Remember, this was 4 years ago. He's more than likely an instructor (and probably a very good one if I "read" him right) by now.

(PS - it's not particularly easy instructing a person who has rolled a car before. And when he was trying to catch someone and it was "on", it was difficult sitting in that right seat!! Thoughts of that damn video [which I had seen prior to instructing him] kept creeping into my mind!)

But to answer the original poster's question - do you worry about getting into a wreck every time you pull out into the street? If so, track may not be for you. It's a risk, but it's not common at all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by whitney &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let's not go spreading rumors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My apologies and belated condolences.

 

The safest way to drive on track is "In slow, out fast". It is near impossible to spin your car, if your accelerating (not spinning the rear wheels for RWD). So slow down good for turn entry then get back on the gas and accelerate through the turn. This is also a rather fast way to get around the track. It's when a driver enters a turn too fast, starts to slide, thinks O-crap I'm too fast to hold this turn, and lifts off the gas to try to slow down making the car spin.

3 most important things when driving IMO:
*be smooth
*enter turns slow & accelerate through them
*Look way ahead (don't fixate on the car your behind)




Modified by 577HondaPrelude at 5:56 PM 6/18/2004

 

I'm racing there tomorrow. Another reason not to read this forum!! Fortunatly my MR2 never loses the tail.

 

Limerock is a blast. Good luck !

 

Yup. Lifting your foot off the gas in a turn will kill you (literally, in some cases)