i just got done reading the August issue of sport truck and there was a DIY article on fender-flaring. Seems pretty easy as i have experienced in fiberglassing so i brainstormed up an idea to put wide tires on my prelude. The car is in the shop right now gettin the engine built and when it comes out all set and down it should be makin 350 WHP. Right now im running 215/45/17 and without a doubt 350 WHP is gonna light the 215's up. Now I dont want to be driving around with dragslicks so i'm goin to cut and flare my fenders all around and install 295 wide tires. I feel traction will be better. Just was wondering if this was ever done before and what is everbody's take on it.

Also, would i require hub spacers because obviously the tire is gonna be wider and i dont want it to hit the upper arm assembly or the knuckle.

thanks

 

Good luck with that.........

I really don't see how you can do it.. You really can't make any space on the inside of the frame.. you would you have serverly widen the fenders.. Widebody kit anyone?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good luck with that.........

I really don't see how you can do it.. You really can't make any space on the inside of the frame.. you would you have serverly widen the fenders.. Widebody kit anyone?</TD></TR></TABLE>

can't you use the hub spacers??? to push the wheel out so it doesn't hit the inside of the frame???

 

then it will look like a mexican low rider Yea as stated above, good luck with that. Dont go to crazy with the hub spacers because it will look like junk.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98TypeSH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">then it will look like a mexican low rider Yea as stated above, good luck with that. Dont go to crazy with the hub spacers because it will look like junk.</TD></TR></TABLE>

who cares if it looks like a mexican low rider. will it be fast? will it have better traction?

also, 295's are gonna be a stretch to jam in those wells. I think 265 is more like it...

 

not gonna happen

 

wtf

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> who cares if it looks like a mexican low rider. will it be fast? will it have better traction?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Umm, i think he plans on this being a daily driver as he said he doesnt want to be running slicks, and simply put its going to be hell to fit. Have a good time and good luck. Its all you if you get 295's on a lude

 

well i sure hope you dont intend on turning the car.

you saw this article in sport TRUCK. wider tires are great for forward/backward (accel/deccel) traction, but terrible for turning. Your car will need a lot more effort to turn and to return to steering center. i hope you didnt ditch the power steering, or you'd just die.

if the car is a drag car, no problem, but as a daily driver, you'll probably regret it. the car won't be driveable and will have really poor turn-in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kablamo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i sure hope you dont intend on turning the car.

you saw this article in sport TRUCK. wider tires are great for forward/backward (accel/deccel) traction, but terrible for turning. Your car will need a lot more effort to turn and to return to steering center. i hope you didnt ditch the power steering, or you'd just die.

if the car is a drag car, no problem, but as a daily driver, you'll probably regret it. the car won't be driveable and will have really poor turn-in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

not a big deal, just work out. I'd take tougher turn in and more max grip over comfort and less grip all day!

as far as daily driving it, he'd need a widebody but that could turn out just fine. everyone wants the JGTC look anyway

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...not a big deal, just work out. I'd take tougher turn in and more max grip over comfort and less grip all day!...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you won't have as must steering travel as before, unless you call that "tougher turn in." How about "no turn in."

Also if any handling is desired, keep in mind tires move a lot side-to-side. Tires need &gt;3/4" clearance as a requirement.

 

You're gonna need some stout axles, CV joints for your whp and tire traction with 295's. Otherwise, strong pulls are going to break something. An l.s.d. would help distribute the torque and take some of the load off the axles.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, you won't have as must steering travel as before, unless you call that "tougher turn in." How about "no turn in."

Also if any handling is desired, keep in mind tires move a lot side-to-side. Tires need &gt;3/4" clearance as a requirement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thank you

the difference going from 215 tires to 295 tires would be huge, and the steering effort would go up considerably... and not just at low speeds.

like i said, in a drag car, great, but any other application, no way. maybe 235...at most.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, you won't have as must steering travel as before, unless you call that "tougher turn in." How about "no turn in."

Also if any handling is desired, keep in mind tires move a lot side-to-side. Tires need &gt;3/4" clearance as a requirement.</TD></TR></TABLE>

which is why he'd use the right size spacers/offset and the requisite widebody kit.

it'd look funny, but i'm sure it's possible. Besides, wasn't there a guy Las VEgas that was running 265's all around? i remember seeing a picture of that.

george douganis's wheels stick out a good 3 or 4" from his miata fenderwell on his 225? hoosiers and he is probably one of the fastest drivers out there. of course it's flared like hell.

the increased track and more contact patch would be a good thing for handling, imo, if you could get it to work. i'm sure we're all well aware of the fact that the lude is pretty under-tyred.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kablamo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thank you

the difference going from 215 tires to 295 tires would be huge, and the steering effort would go up considerably... and not just at low speeds.

like i said, in a drag car, great, but any other application, no way. maybe 235...at most.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

the steering EFFORT side of the equation to me is a minor detail that could be fixed mechanically. whether you switch to a bigger diameter steering wheel, or find a way to increase the output of the PS system, there's a solution there.

the fitment side is probably a little more messy, and would require a lot of custom work and whatnot, but with enough money i'm sure you could find a way to get it to fit. how messed up would it look? don't know i've never seen a lude on 295's.

as far as handling is concerned, if a 3000 lb vette is on 305's obviously 205's on a 2950 lb prelude isn't enough tire, depending on the application. an autox lude might not need huge tires (though i certainly could go for more, aka 245/40/15's if anyone ever made one in a decent compound), whereas drag race ludes might need more or less. etc etc. the point is, i can see why someone would want 295's and i don't think it'd necessarily be slower or handle worse.


Modified by bad-monkey at 8:39 PM 6/14/2004

 

dude, you obviously don't know what you are talking about:

the cars you keep referring to (Vette, Miata) are all REAR WHEEL DRIVE. the front wheels don't need to do anything but turn, which means you don't have to factor torque steer in. Also, why do you think front tires are usually narrower on RWD cars, especially in sports cars? It's because wider tires need more force to turn (break the inertia - ie making them turn when they are going straight).

Also, cars like the vette that have 245 front tires (compared to 275 on the back) stock can have the power steering designed to compensate for that, of course it's always a tradeoff in design to increase power steering strength which reduces feedback.

Again, this isn't just about steering effort, it's about how easy the whole car will turn - with wide tires in the front, the car simply won't want to turn as much, it's not about having stronger arms or stronger power steering: you are going to hurt the responsiveness of the car.

The cars you bring up are RWD, which is a different case, but let's take the "ultimate" front wheel drive car:
ITR: stock front tire width: 195mm (even grand-am cup race cars have only 225)
(http://typer.org/specifications.html)

Even the new TL's front tires are 235, and it has low turn to lock and high steering ratio which means the steering is heavily assisted (of course, it's a luxury car).

 

did some research...

my 215/45/17 in tire, the new 295/35/17 tire

Side Wall Height (inch) 3.8 Side Wall Height (inch) 4.06
Tire Width (inch) 8.46 in Tire Width (inch) 11.61 in
Tire Diameter (inch) 24.62 Tire Diameter (inch) 25.13

Tire+Wheel Radius (inch) 12.31 Tire+Wheel Radius (inch) 12.56

Tire Circumference (inch) 77.34 Tire Circumference (inch) 78.95


so as you can see the overall tire witdh only grew 3.15in
which would need to be spaced out 1.575 in from the inside and inturn would stick out 3.15in( because of the spacing)

all the other factors seem to be pretty close, but i am no expert
as far as a wide body kit

i would just cut, and flair all the fenders 4in outwards
i think i will look alright
definitly different looking but alright....and as far as this turning issue...
i say "who cares"

yes the car will be a daily driver/ and that is all i would need the turning for...as i don't autoX

but i think i would be able to cope with the miniscule problem bigger tires would cause...i'm sure the extra traction i should be picking up would make me forget about all of that

 

regardless of the drivetrain, understeer and overall grip is most affected by the front tires in a FF car. The ultimate FF car comes from the factory with 195's, but aren't most ITR roadracers running 225's? if i had the choice of running 195/60/14 azenis vs the 215/45/16, your theory suggests that the 195's would be better for "handling response" even if it's only by a little, but real world applications would suggest exactly the opposite. hypothetically, if falken made an azenis that had the same OD, but in differing widths let's say 205/50, 215/45, or 225/40 which tire would most people choose to run on a heavier race car? the 225's.

the way the circle of traction works, and considering that FF cars use the front tires to handle turning, braking, and acceleration all with the same 2 contact patches, it's safe to say that more contact patch is better, assuming that the compounds are the same. the bottom line is that in most cases, more width = more grip, and more grip = higher cornering speeds. What you give up in the ability to make quick transitions can be accounted for mechanically.

if you can get the rack to turn the wheels from lock to lock and there are no clearance issues, i'm not sure why you think the car won't turn "as much." there may be more FRICTIONAL resistance to turning the steering wheel than with a smaller width tire, (this resistance is NOT an inertial value) but once the wheel gets turned, the car will move along the new angle created by the front tires. As far as turning a wheel with bigger contact patches and friction, it may be a bitch to parallel park, but it won't be all that difficult when the car is moving.

regardless of whether miatas or corvettes or ITR's are FR or MR or 4wd or FF, the bottom line is that tire sizes are a function of vehicle weight and power. It's even more exaggerated in an FF car, since the front tires have more to do. so if i could jam 245's under my prelude, i would, but i prob can't without some body work, so i'm stuck running 225's in the current ruleset. i'm sure other honda roadracers would consider running much wider tires if they needed to (who knows, maybe 225mm hoosiers are enough tire for a 2200 lb race car) if the other factors allowed them to do so: rules, cost-benefit, etc.

if you're arguing that there is an ideal tire width for our cars, then inclined to agree that somewhere between 205 and 265 there's a perfect tire for our cars in a perfect world.

but if you're arguing only that wider tires are bad for handling, then i disagree.

edit: it's kinda funny that YOU, who got this information from "Sport Truck Magazine" are telling ME that i don't know what i'm talking about. If i take away your magazine and ask you something about tire widths, contact patches, or anything else you fancy yourself an expert on, would you have any sort of answer? Since i'm out on a course twice a month or more, and constantly thinking about this kind of stuff, using information i get from here, elsewhere, and the REAL WORLD, i find it pretty ironic that a magazine racer is patronizing me. and even though i may not have ALL the answers, at least mine didn't come from a magazine...

oh and btw, another point: you got your article from Sport Truck, about front tire widths, and now you're on my case for referencing FR cars, but, do you know any sport trucks that aren't FR drivetrains? IF i don't know what i'm talking about b/c i'm bringing up RWD cars, aren't you even dumber for using information from a magazine that mostly deals with RWD sports trucks and applying them to a car that's obviously FF? like i said above, drivetrain doesn't matter to me in this argument, but it obviosuly matters to you, i'll give you 5 minutes to shore up your hypocritical argument starting now...


Modified by bad-monkey at 11:39 PM 6/14/2004

 

i would go 295's. maybe 245-255. the reason behind this is grip right? i had 450 whp on 225 bf drags. didnt get all the traction down, but did real well. if your tring to save money, think about how much a 295 tire will be as oppesed to 225 dot drag tire. id go w/245 dot drag.

 

As long as you have powersteering, you can regain lost turn in with more caster. However, what you loose is the abillity for the cars rack to return to center while driving. This is a major issue! You widen the tire by roughly 3 inches. If you have to move the wheel out by at least 1-2 inches you run the possabillity of ruining the cars feeling of control. On one of our prototype kitcars, we had the wheels in 1/2" less than the suspension it was modeled after. The rack would never return to center no matter what we did to the alignment and it would pull when steering. It was a scary car to drive. Unless you REALLY know what you're doing, leave this sort of thing to the engineers.

As for the body work, I've never been a fan of molding composites to steel. The point of contact between the two pieces will have bondo. The expansion rate between bondo, fiberglass and steel is so different that you'll be able to tell where each begins and ends if you park outside allot. One of our fg rods comes back every year to have the car repainted due to this. Its a show car thats a garaged Sunday driver. You can see wavyness, grooves and spider cracks from the bondo shrinking and the fg settling. Dark cars are much worse but you'll see it in about a year regardless of color.

 

ok first of all i am not taking any info from sport truck, i was pointing out that he saw an article in that magazine, i guess that shows how well you were able to read my posts the original poster is the one who was reading sport truck.

secondly, what do you know about how often i go to the track? you mistakenly assumed i'm a magazine racer because you didnt even read my posts right, you dont know if i've been auto-x before, if i've been to track days, if i've got friends who are formula car racers - all of which are true by the way (formula renault).

thirldy, i dont know who you are around when at the track, but i've never seen any FWD with tires wider than 235, except for stunnaz with huge rims, who obviously dont care about performance.

Try looking up the specs for ANY stock car - you'll see that even 500hp Ferraris don't usually have anything more than 235's at the front; i don't know all specs for all cars, i'm sure there are a few that exceed this, but porsche gt2's and ferrari 360 modena's are still "only" 235's at the front. Hell even Formula 1 cars have significantly narrower front tires than the rear.

Now you bring up the traction circle - which is a very good point, and everything you said is true, except that you're not using this in the context of a whole car: yes more tire width=more contact patch = more traction all else being equal - BUT...
there is such things as car balance, weight distribution, understeer and oversteer, slip angles and other goodies that make it so that you dont want so much traction at the front, because you'll (as i've been trying to explain all along) create a car that doesn't want to turn and basically understeer like crazy.

This guy's situation is tricky because he has a FWD car with a lot of power, whereas most cars with 350hp are going to be rear wheel drive. rear wheel drive cars can easily widen the rear tires to gain traction as you are implying, because they can still have relatively narrow front tires (which are still wide enough to compromise between grip and turning ability) as compared to the rear, which maintains good cornering ability. However, because his car is FWD, although it's tempting to widen the front tires to get more power to the ground, he still has to keep in mind that the front tires need to turn and widening them significantly will affect the car's turning ability greatly, as well as the stability and balance during a turn, especially at high speed.

Like a poster above said (racerx), he can somewhat alleviate that by changing the caster, but then the car won't center anymore - even if he does manage to turn the thing, he'll have to manually return the steering wheel to center. Then there's torque steer, which is going to be an even worse problem because all the grip those front tires are generating. the result is going to be a car that's a royal pain to drive.

I say he goes with 225 tires on the front, maybe 235 or 245 MAX - dealing with wheelspin is a lot easier than fighting with strong understeer and a car that won't center. At least he can try different tires, compounds, and see what he finds has the most grip.

Once again, i'm NOT arguing with you that wider tires do not equal more grip, but my point is that on a FWD car it's a very, very delicate balance between grip at the front and maintaining a responsive, fairly neutral and predictable handling car. This is a compromise that's not as difficult on a RWD or MR chassis, but ALL cars regardless of their layout put narrower tires on the front because the benefit in responsiveness is preferable to the extra grip.

edit: between 195/60/14 and 215/45/16 of course i would pick the 215's, but if i had the choice between 225/40/16 and say 245/35/17 i'd still pick the 225's, but this choice does depend on the car, its' layout, it's weight bias, suspension setup and of course the rear tires.

 

what's the widest tire you can put on a 99 lude without rubbing or cutting anything? non SH

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kablamo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

ok first of all i am not taking any info from sport truck, i was pointing out that he saw an article in that magazine, i guess that shows how well you were able to read my posts the original poster is the one who was reading sport truck.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

fair enough, i did misread your post.

but once my current set of azenis is done, i'll see if i can find my way onto a set of 245's and make em work. it won't be scientific but we'll see if my relative times improve. my gut feeling is that there will be an improvement in lap times, granted we don't get more 5 slalom courses like we did this past weekend.

since i don't have access to a skidpad, i'm not sure it'll be an objective analysis, but maybe some lap timers at streets of willow and how i place at the local a/x will have to suffice.

 

that's going to be too much unsprung weight and it'll add too much stress to the cv joints. ie. even if you can get it to work, you will break something.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

fair enough, i did misread your post.

but once my current set of azenis is done, i'll see if i can find my way onto a set of 245's and make em work. it won't be scientific but we'll see if my relative times improve. my gut feeling is that there will be an improvement in lap times, granted we don't get more 5 slalom courses like we did this past weekend.

since i don't have access to a skidpad, i'm not sure it'll be an objective analysis, but maybe some lap timers at streets of willow and how i place at the local a/x will have to suffice.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no harm done

i'm sure the improvement/detriment of the wider tires would depend heavily on what kind of course it is...