ecu question?
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From: MN
ecu question?
i gotta jdm gsr in my hatch (96). Right now im using the jdm gsr ecu and i recently got my hands on a 98 itr ecu and was wondering will there be any difference power wise if i swaped them?
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sell the itr one to fund some sort of engine management system.
i did some tests on using stock honda ECU's on a b16 and as it turns out the p30 was the best.. beter than a p61, better than a skunk2 chipped p28 etc.
it was done using a dynojet.
i did some tests on using stock honda ECU's on a b16 and as it turns out the p30 was the best.. beter than a p61, better than a skunk2 chipped p28 etc.
it was done using a dynojet.
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From: 92127
Re: ecu question? (TK715)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TK715 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i gotta jdm gsr in my hatch (96). Right now im using the jdm gsr ecu and i recently got my hands on a 98 itr ecu and was wondering will there be any difference power wise if i swaped them?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The ITR ECU will not control the IAB on the GSR engine. You will probably lose power.
The ITR ECU will not control the IAB on the GSR engine. You will probably lose power.
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From: PASADENA, CA, USA
Re: (pills_PMD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pills_PMD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sell the itr one to fund some sort of engine management system.
i did some tests on using stock honda ECU's on a b16 and as it turns out the p30 was the best.. beter than a p61, better than a skunk2 chipped p28 etc.
it was done using a dynojet.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats definitely debateable..as far as comparing a stock P30 to a genuine skunk2 chipped P28. If a B16 engine is left mostly stock - ie. no cam upgrades or higher compression pistons, then yes a P30 is perfect. When you get into changing your camshafts to something other than stock, thats when a reprogrammed ecu will do its job because of powerband changes a camshaft change permits.
Also, a skunk2 program needs the aide of a VTEC/Fuel controller to fine tune (lean out) the fuel dumpage. Once that's done you will see power gains with the skunk program. But outa the box the skunk program "feels" better than stock ie. enhanced throttle response possibly due to the major fuel dumpage.
TK715,
Like some of what the others have said, its best if you run a GSR ecu with your SiR-G engine vs. the ITR ecu because of the secondary butterfly (IAB) factor, but if you really want to run the ITR ecu I suggest you get some kind of vtec controller and lower the VTEC crossover point to around 5200-5300rpm. Normally a GSR's ecu kicks on VTEC around 4800-5000rpm (depending on throttle load) and the secondary's fully open up at 5700rpm. Othewise if you run the ITR ecu as-is with the 5700 vtec point, you're losing about 10ft lbs. of low-end torque because of inoperable IAB's, and lowering VTEC on an ITR ecu to 5200-5300rpm helps relieve that low-end torque loss.
i did some tests on using stock honda ECU's on a b16 and as it turns out the p30 was the best.. beter than a p61, better than a skunk2 chipped p28 etc.
it was done using a dynojet.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats definitely debateable..as far as comparing a stock P30 to a genuine skunk2 chipped P28. If a B16 engine is left mostly stock - ie. no cam upgrades or higher compression pistons, then yes a P30 is perfect. When you get into changing your camshafts to something other than stock, thats when a reprogrammed ecu will do its job because of powerband changes a camshaft change permits.
Also, a skunk2 program needs the aide of a VTEC/Fuel controller to fine tune (lean out) the fuel dumpage. Once that's done you will see power gains with the skunk program. But outa the box the skunk program "feels" better than stock ie. enhanced throttle response possibly due to the major fuel dumpage.
TK715,
Like some of what the others have said, its best if you run a GSR ecu with your SiR-G engine vs. the ITR ecu because of the secondary butterfly (IAB) factor, but if you really want to run the ITR ecu I suggest you get some kind of vtec controller and lower the VTEC crossover point to around 5200-5300rpm. Normally a GSR's ecu kicks on VTEC around 4800-5000rpm (depending on throttle load) and the secondary's fully open up at 5700rpm. Othewise if you run the ITR ecu as-is with the 5700 vtec point, you're losing about 10ft lbs. of low-end torque because of inoperable IAB's, and lowering VTEC on an ITR ecu to 5200-5300rpm helps relieve that low-end torque loss.
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From: PASADENA, CA, USA
Re: (TK715)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TK715 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im running a skunk2 IM so i dont have secondaries.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok kewl. Then the ITR ecu is fully worthy of using then.
ok kewl. Then the ITR ecu is fully worthy of using then.
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From: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Re: (Katman)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Katman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, a skunk2 program needs the aide of a VTEC/Fuel controller to fine tune (lean out) the fuel dumpage. Once that's done you will see power gains with the skunk program. But outa the box the skunk program "feels" better than stock ie. enhanced throttle response possibly due to the major fuel dumpage.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Meester Kaplan, I disagree in a large number of respects.
Using an AFC to take fuel out of the Skank2 fuel maps has the side effect of advancing your ignition timing, which is where the power increase comes from. Why not just forgo the $300 pile of **** piggyback and dial your distributor foreward a couple degrees? If you insist on spending money to be able to have more tunability, then you should drop the sub-$100 it costs to get a chip burner and chipping supplies. Hell, there's even a guy on homemadeturbo offering free chipping/socketing if you cover his $20 cost of supplies, for those not comfoprtable with DIY.
Out of the box, the Skank2 throttle response is due to the ignition mappings. The excess fuel runs the car too rich part throttle and encourages bogging if you want to look at things from a purely fuel standpoint... in a totally stock setup, the correctly matched stock ECU runs 11.8-ish AFR when WOT. Most all of the B-series ECUs hit 100% duty at WOT in the higher revs. You're not going to get any more fuel up where you need it with a different fuel map, or from an AFC, and you already have enough to play with as you increase VE with bolt ons... if you're savvy and know wtf is going on.
Meester Kaplan, I disagree in a large number of respects.
Using an AFC to take fuel out of the Skank2 fuel maps has the side effect of advancing your ignition timing, which is where the power increase comes from. Why not just forgo the $300 pile of **** piggyback and dial your distributor foreward a couple degrees? If you insist on spending money to be able to have more tunability, then you should drop the sub-$100 it costs to get a chip burner and chipping supplies. Hell, there's even a guy on homemadeturbo offering free chipping/socketing if you cover his $20 cost of supplies, for those not comfoprtable with DIY.
Out of the box, the Skank2 throttle response is due to the ignition mappings. The excess fuel runs the car too rich part throttle and encourages bogging if you want to look at things from a purely fuel standpoint... in a totally stock setup, the correctly matched stock ECU runs 11.8-ish AFR when WOT. Most all of the B-series ECUs hit 100% duty at WOT in the higher revs. You're not going to get any more fuel up where you need it with a different fuel map, or from an AFC, and you already have enough to play with as you increase VE with bolt ons... if you're savvy and know wtf is going on.
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From: PASADENA, CA, USA
Re: (J. Davis)
J.D., I no doubtedly agree with your ecu tuning views. You seem to be a bit deeper into the ecu tuning game than I am and I know there's been great advancements in ecu tunability in the past couple years..
But as you know, some people out there are just not willing to spend $$$ on higher-end ecu tuning, such as Hondata, AEM EMS, etc., even though its becoming more apparent that serious ecu tuning is what's needed to really optimize an engine. If they want to buy a piggy-back system so be it. Kudos to the 'homemadeturbo guy' running a cheap-*** ecu chipping service. Everyones gotta make their end$ somehow, whether it fawks up the market or not, right?
But why I mainly disagree with mr.pills (and I've read his dyno comparison P30/P61/Sk2 P28 page) is because I've ran this program and have had it fine tuned on the dyno with my own engine (b17), a few years ago along with the aide of an Fields SFC. The dyno tuner (Oshimo) decreased the fuel dumping settings, I believe in lower RPM's, and then enriched them more up top after 7000rpm which showed a nice gain in power, around 5-7hp, along with obviously adjusting the ignition timing as well. So this program IS a worthy upgrade
Its probably just me, but I dunno why this program gets so hated upon by a handful of the the pgmfi forum guys. I personally like this program and its a proven power maker. Kenji down in Tampa has made nice gains with this program as well. It's a program I do offer to people when they hit me up for ecu reprogramming services, depending on their engine setup of course. That Pills/Hewitt dyno test was just baseline runs too, no actual tuning, which is what the Mugen/Sk2 program totally needs to make optimum power.
...I'm just trying to keep the love for piggy-back tuners (such as myself)
Modified by Katman at 1:13 PM 6/4/2004
But as you know, some people out there are just not willing to spend $$$ on higher-end ecu tuning, such as Hondata, AEM EMS, etc., even though its becoming more apparent that serious ecu tuning is what's needed to really optimize an engine. If they want to buy a piggy-back system so be it. Kudos to the 'homemadeturbo guy' running a cheap-*** ecu chipping service. Everyones gotta make their end$ somehow, whether it fawks up the market or not, right?
But why I mainly disagree with mr.pills (and I've read his dyno comparison P30/P61/Sk2 P28 page) is because I've ran this program and have had it fine tuned on the dyno with my own engine (b17), a few years ago along with the aide of an Fields SFC. The dyno tuner (Oshimo) decreased the fuel dumping settings, I believe in lower RPM's, and then enriched them more up top after 7000rpm which showed a nice gain in power, around 5-7hp, along with obviously adjusting the ignition timing as well. So this program IS a worthy upgrade
Its probably just me, but I dunno why this program gets so hated upon by a handful of the the pgmfi forum guys. I personally like this program and its a proven power maker. Kenji down in Tampa has made nice gains with this program as well. It's a program I do offer to people when they hit me up for ecu reprogramming services, depending on their engine setup of course. That Pills/Hewitt dyno test was just baseline runs too, no actual tuning, which is what the Mugen/Sk2 program totally needs to make optimum power.
...I'm just trying to keep the love for piggy-back tuners (such as myself)
Modified by Katman at 1:13 PM 6/4/2004
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From: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Re: (Katman)
Well, I know the other the other side likes what they view as the simpler and familiar solution, but in the age of the freeware standalone it makes little to no sense to me. I am an overopinionated assmallet, so having made my point I'll let the matter drop.
I, and other PGMFI guys, hate on the Skank/Mugen/etc programs because they are shoddy hacks of the OEM code, with most of the ECU diagnostics removed for no reason whatsoever. Got a problem with a distributor sensor? You're SOL for diagnosis, most of your CELs don't exist anymore. When it comes time to tune a credible NA engine, however, I'm not the only PGMFI guy who starts with Skank2 ignition maps and widebands the fuel map in with street tuning. Depending on engine particulars and how everything sounds through my KS audio rig, the ignition may or may not get tweaked, but that's usually saved for actual dyno sessions.
I, and other PGMFI guys, hate on the Skank/Mugen/etc programs because they are shoddy hacks of the OEM code, with most of the ECU diagnostics removed for no reason whatsoever. Got a problem with a distributor sensor? You're SOL for diagnosis, most of your CELs don't exist anymore. When it comes time to tune a credible NA engine, however, I'm not the only PGMFI guy who starts with Skank2 ignition maps and widebands the fuel map in with street tuning. Depending on engine particulars and how everything sounds through my KS audio rig, the ignition may or may not get tweaked, but that's usually saved for actual dyno sessions.
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