So after having the master clinder replaced, the ABS system exercised, the brakes still feel mushy. I have been taking it to Basch Acura who has done a great job, but now with work I need a place that is open on weekends because I need to drive to work.

I made an appointment with the dealer who told me that they could not provide a loaner car for this type of service. Can anyone explain this? The car is in warranty; I just told them the brakes felt mushy. If they claim it is the mster brake cylinder, should that be covered by the warranty?

If I can't get this brake problem fixed I am done with the R. Is it possible that if the dealer can't fix the brake problem I could get something done using the Lemon law?

Sorry for the long post; I am really frustrated.

 

Do you know if the system is leaking? By mushy how do you mean? Mushy compared to?

 

bleed the master cylinder, if already hasnt been done. and it could be the proportiong valve, if it is the pvalve try to get one off of an si they are horizantal instead of diagnol.

 

If you're still under warrenty you should have been taking your car to the dealership from the begniining when we first spoke, at least I would have. Or maybe you did and I forgot?

I don't have the luxury of the warrenty and thus I had to do several of if not all of the same steps that you took to get my brakes back and a firm pedal.

There are several other issues that could be the problem, the Accumulator for the ABS unit being one possible, but you know you are in good hands with Mark and if he's done right by you till now, either let him keep doing the work or AND or take it to your selling dealership for work under warrenty.

Your warrenty should cover your abs brake related issues. If they claim otherwise I'd raise Holy Hell till they did.

After we last spoke I had gone to Larry Bastanza and done a full bleed and excercise of the ABS pump/system and have since taken it to autocross where it performs flawlessly.

Unfortunately just as before, there are only a handful of us with these specific type's of brake issues and some like Trey (Ashai) had their work done by the dealership which solved the problem and others of us had to dig deeper and do some more intensive brake/abs services to get everything back to normal.

IF you are still covered under an Acura/Honda warrenty, This is exactly where I'd start.

As always, I know the feeling and totally sympathize and wish you the best of luck and will help any way I can.

Anton

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by someday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bleed the master cylinder, if already hasnt been done.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That didn't solve his and didn't solve mine either.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by someday &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and it could be the proportiong valve, if it is the pvalve try to get one off of an si they are horizantal instead of diagnol.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is something you definitely Don't want to do.


Has Mark looked at the vaccuum on the brake booster? Or even a bad brake booster altogether?


Modified by 1GreyTeg at 7:11 PM 6/1/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onyx00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So after having the master clinder replaced, the ABS system exercised, the brakes still feel mushy. I have been taking it to Basch Acura who has done a great job, but now with work I need a place that is open on weekends because I need to drive to work.

I made an appointment with the dealer who told me that they could not provide a loaner car for this type of service. Can anyone explain this? The car is in warranty; I just told them the brakes felt mushy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't understand. You say Basch has done a great job. That sounds like they fixed it. What did they do? Can't you have the dealer do what Basch did to fix it? And if Basch fixed it, why is it not working again?

One suggestion about fixing it - is it possible that the brakes may be working just fine? Have you tried letting another ITR owner (or Mark Basch) drive it and give you an opinion?

As for the weekend hours issue... all the dealers I know who have service hours on weekends, are staffed on weekends by their most junior techs. I wouldn't have anything more complicated than an oil change done on a weekend. Just my $.02...

 

Basch kept it for a week while I was on vacation and they said it felt fine to them. I will have another ITR owner drive it as soon as I can, but I am pretty sure I am not imagining things. I have bleed the brakes before and I know how they should feel.

This may be a bad comparison, but my g/f has a Lancer ES and her brakes feel much more firm than mine do. I know, apples to oranges, but don't you think the R's brakes should feel just as good if not better than a base model Lancer ES?

Basch has done a great job getting the brakes to feel good when thewy work on it and they slowly they feel worse and worse. As much as I'd like to take it back to them, I just have no other options in terms of using another car to get to a from work. And I cannot really car pool with someone considering tommarrow is my first real day at my job.

I think the dealer is my only option at this point.

I appreciate all the helpful comments; I am so frustrated with the car lately. I just want the problem fixed.

 

Sorry but really sounds as if the master cyl. they put on it is going bad too. Just bad luck your the 1 in maybe 10,000 for failure(just a guess) but it can happen. If you say that after they worked on it they felt fine but then over time(you didn,t specify exact time) they got worse again. Well then there is something wrong and for sure first thing is if your not losing the fluid somewhere and the level hasn't changed it's the master cylinder bypassing. I say you should take it back to them you are entitled to parts warranty even if your car were out of regular warranty and labor since you did it at a dealer. Only other thing I can guess is if your sure it's bled well, it could be a really hard driver that overcooked the brakes and boiled the fluid but you'd have to really beat on them to do that so it's not likely. Just to add most dealers do have there junior techs on weekends but at least one of there senior more experienced one's as well, at least we do( I am a senior tech at my dealer 13yrs now) and an R owner myself

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integratom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I say you should take it back to them you are entitled to parts warranty even if your car were out of regular warranty and labor since you did it at a dealer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Basch Acura is not a dealer. However, they are a highly-regarded independent mechanic who stands behind their work...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integratom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Sorry but really sounds as if the master cyl. they put on it is going bad too. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, see this was the same thing I thought when I went out and replaced my MC with another brand new piece just like Onyx but that wasn't the issue. This was the same type of advice I got on the net and ironically in the RRAX forum but it wasn't the case and I have a nice almost new MC as a backup now.

Not to say it is the same issue for him now as well but I think he is having a bit of trouble with comparing his GF's Lancers brakes to the R's. They are 2 completely different brake systems and the feel will never be the same. I'd never expect the R's brakes to feel like an M3's. Not that the Lancers brakes are close to equal but I hope you get my point.

I had another instance when we just bought our 04 Chevy Trailblazer and felt the brake pedal was soft and funny hydraulic feeling, I come to find out that most all Chevy trucks just like my fathers Tahoe have that same hydraulic feel. But the truck stops extremely well.

Not that this is the same comparison just that the pedal will not always be rock solid for all cars.

Unless of course you remove the brake booster altogether, then you'll have a seriously hard pedal.

Larry Bastanza who helped me had been in contact with Mark Basch and discussed Both of our issues at length and We went ahead and did the SAME ABS excercise before the full flush/bleed, then took it out for a road test and noticed amazing improvement as I said has held to date and that is since March.

This could be an issue we haven't even seen or dealt with yet,

Or as Mark said maybe the brakes are fine and you just may want them to feel like something they're not nor ever will be. And nothing against you at all.

Some people may never have enough available horsepower, I'd much rather have more brakes than I'll ever need. Been there done that and it's scary to be tracking and losing your pedal.

 

I would stick it to the dealer, however if you want to try and flush the system again you can borrow my vacuum bleeder.

 

FWIW my ITR brakes seem to have quite a bit of pedal travel - which could be interpreted as the brakes feeling "mushy" - but they work just fine...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
FWIW my ITR brakes seem to have quite a bit of pedal travel - which could be interpreted as the brakes feeling "mushy" - but they work just fine...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ken what type of brake lines are you using?, I have the Goodrich SS lines and with the ATE Blue & Ultimates, I have nearly no travel in the pedal. Almost like an old ford no that touchy but does react quick to the touch.

I'm thinking he has a weak Brake line thats flexing a bit too much when the pedal is applied.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ken what type of brake lines are you using?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stock.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking he has a weak Brake line thats flexing a bit too much when the pedal is applied.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's possible.

 

what kind of brake fluid are you using? and under what conditions? going to the track?

sounds like you boiled the fluid or have a bad mc

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bbasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking he has a weak Brake line thats flexing a bit too much when the pedal is applied.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have Goodridge SS also. Probably not a weak brake line. Unless one of the SS ones are bad. but I would think Basch would have noticed a bad line bulging.

I am using a combination of ATE and Honda now since Basch put in Honda fluid when they replaced the MC for the second time.

It kind of feels like the MC though. I have to call the dealer tommarrow and argue for a loaner, they said (even though my car is under warranty) I cannot get a loaner for "that type of service." Bastards.

 

What does the pedal feel like, engine off and after 3 good pumps? Firm and stays firm or firm then slowly sinks?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Louie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What does the pedal feel like, engine off and after 3 good pumps? Firm and stays firm or firm then slowly sinks?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was going to ask something similar, If you pump the crap out of your brake pedal while in N does your rpm drop down then pop back up?- I'm thinking vacuum leak if its not the SS lines failing.

If you can I think you should return back to the stock lines if you have them and then go from there to see if you could eliminate some of the causes.

IF you don't have the stock lines you could use mine then return them.

 

Anton, what is this ABS "exercise" you keep referring to?

The reason I ask is that I have an EF with itr abs and 5-lug and the pedal is very soft - but the bitch stops on a dime. Stock lines and fluid/ pads, etc. But the ABS is a bit touchy and I suspect I need to get some air out of the abs pump...

My itr on the other hand has ss lines and Motul, but with the cusco mc brace the pedal is rock hard. I boiled the fluid though - so it doesn't stop as well... lol.

Funny how "feel" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with performance, eh?

 

Exercising the ABS is just cycling the soleniods and motor. You can do this two ways, electrically by running a voltage across the soleniods and motor or just go out and stop the car numerous times and forcing the car to use the ABS. I haven't had any luck electrically, so I just went out and did 20-30 very hard ABS stops. I bled the brakes before I did this and after the exercise. The brakes feel like new again.

 

Bingo.

I also did the drive all over God's creation and slam into ABS, best effective way for me was on some dirt roads and gravel covered asphalt surfaces. I jammed on the brakes about 75 to 100 times at varying speeds from 30 to about 65mph.

It's almost like rebedding pads but you aren't trying to control lockup, you are basically jamming the pedal till the abs kicks in and the car almost stops then you do it a bunch of times more.

I had these issues with a totally stock brake system. I boiled ATE superblue and Type2 because my pedal would start to fade after a few laps and was so bad that I had to double pump the brake then try and double clutch and make it through corners on the track.

After they were resolved I now have Goodridge SS lines, Motul 600 rbf, removed dust shields and running on Azenis. AFTER the brakes/mushy pedal were resolved I added a MC brace and combine that with the SS lines and the feel is awesome. Feel Not as In firmness (which is there) but as in the ability to "feel" and "modulate" the brakes before ABS and lockup. But the MC brace and SS lines are NOT a cure for the mushy pedal syndrome.


Onyx00, I was under the impression that you Already replaced the MC just like myself and Still had the mushy or fading pedal?

As mentioned, if the ignition is off and you depress the pedal several times and it goes to firm or close to then falls to the floor, there is a possible booster/vaccuum issue. You could also pull the vaccuum hose from the booster and check for vaccuum. If it holds firm and doesn't drop or fade, the booster is fine according to the Helm's.

 

Or the SS line carry a large volume of fluid than the OEM rubber lines causing additional pedal travel...just a thought.

I'd swap out the SS lines and see if things get better.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onyx00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have Goodridge SS also. Probably not a weak brake line. Unless one of the SS ones are bad. but I would think Basch would have noticed a bad line bulging.

I am using a combination of ATE and Honda now since Basch put in Honda fluid when they replaced the MC for the second time.

It kind of feels like the MC though. I have to call the dealer tommarrow and argue for a loaner, they said (even though my car is under warranty) I cannot get a loaner for "that type of service." Bastards.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I just tried pumping the pedal 3 times with the car off, pedal gets very firm and holds. Feels great. When the car is on the pedal feels mushy and soft.

I have had SS lines for about 20K miles, so I think if it were due to different volume of brake fluid in the lines I would have felt it for awhile now and would be used to it, but that is not the case.

In case I didn't mention above, the MC has been replaced twice. Once by myself and once by Basch.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onyx00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just tried pumping the pedal 3 times with the car off, pedal gets very firm and holds. Feels great. When the car is on the pedal feels mushy and soft.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well that means your MC is all good.

Try the ABS exercise and rebleed again.