Hey guys, I've never been into that whole thing with the racing seats but after hearing for ages about how heavy my 1991 Si doors are with all the seat belt ****, I really want to take out all that extra crap and just install a 5 point harness..

Someone here on HT is selling a G-force 5 pt harness for real cheap but I'm wondering how to correctly install this (stock seats) connecting it to the rear strut bar. I've seen it done but I want to make sure I don't go into this thinking it will work and then have to put on the heavy stock stuff again.

So I'm wondering if I buy these harnesses, what sort of stuff will I need to attach it? And will your standard run of the mill cheapo $15 ebay rear strut bar be safe enough to hold the seat harness in?

 

do you have a crx or hatch

 

There is no such thing as a safe harness without a rollbar. If you are in an accident and your car rolls, a harness without a rollbar will kill you. It will not allow your body to move like a stock seatbelt does. If you want a harness, get a rollbar. Check out autopower.com & kirkracing.com. I've got a Kirk myself but both are quality products. And please, don't install a harness without roll protection.

 

Hey Dave,

I have a question about the harness thing without a roll bar.
I have seen this mentioned a few times here and was wondering what data there is to back up this statement.
I am not questioning the statement I would just like to have some reference material so I can have this same conversation with a few people I know.

Thanks
Steve

 

I have a 3pt. Shoulder straps both bolt to the factory rear seat mounting points where the rear seatbelts bolt to. My lap belts bolt to the sides behind the seat.

As long as the shoulder straps are bolted so that they're 45-90 degrees angle, and the lap belts are secured good. You'll be fine.

 

5 point harness = roll bar for correct install... 5 point harness and strut bar = death ....

 

so your saying with a 5 pt harness in a normal daily driving if i were to get in an accident (not roll the car) I would die?

DEF

 

2+2= Marshmallow

Don't give me straight up opinion, give me the facts behind this harness and no roll bar = death..

 

well first you wont have enough strap to properly (the way they were designed) put the strap through the slider. you should go through it 3 times. trust me, i work as a tech inspector for NASA-VA.

second, they were designed to work at a minimum 0 degree difference from your shoulders to a max of 15 degrees from your shoulders i beleive. i'll see if i cant find an illistration.

lastly, the rear of a crx is a crumple zone. almost the entire thing, even the wheel wells. so if you mount your "harness" in that location, it will move forward in a rear end collision, there for you move forward and the steering wheel stops you.

in street driving you have to worry about getting rear ended more than anything, because its something you really dont control much of. and that is the big saftey risk with this set up. trust me about it being uncontrolable... cause i got hit front the rear stopped at a stop light and pushed under a ford explorer... crx's dont take that too well.

 

and depending on the build of the strut bar in the back... anything other then a solid one peice... you are chancing joint fatigue, stretch and ultimately failure... if you were to run into something head on.

and the degrees of the harnesses has to do with how much stress the belt will take. thats also why you dont just bolt them to the floor behind you (shoulder belts).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSVTEC 91 Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As long as the shoulder straps are bolted so that they're 45-90 degrees angle, and the lap belts are secured good. You'll be fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>

45-90 degree angle from what? Horizontal? No way that's safe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by deftones0817 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so your saying with a 5 pt harness in a normal daily driving if i were to get in an accident (not roll the car) I would die?

DEF</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone who says you will die is just as big of an idiot as the person who says you won't. There are no controlled studies of poorly designed safety equipment. Nobody will pay to fund them. But physics is physics. Unless you design a strut tower bar for the purpose of mounting a harness (which will be more expensive than a roll bar), you're asking for more than your strut bar can offer even at lower speeds. Would you be willing to jump on your strut tower bar? I bet you'd be afraid to bend it. Feel free to jump on my cage.

As for mounting location, harness material is designed to stretch under load, and the longer the length, the more it stretches. On public streets, the first impact will stretch a long (back to the strut tower) belt beyond function in a second impact. That's like your OEM belt just disconnecting after the first impact...who would allow that?

In the end, this argument is always the same...there's no good data showing that poor safety equipment is poor and there never will be. But I suspect that if a car company could put a cheap $50 harness and a cheap $50 strut bar in their cars in place of a very expensive OEM system, they would.

 

So in looking at a supplier of quality harnesses (schroth) they have very specific recommendations as to the vehicles that a harness upgrade can be done and exact directions and DOT approval for these applications.

It seems that after a sampling a few of the major players, it is not real cut and dry..

I was always under the impression that a harness bar with a 4 or 5 point was acceptable... It seems that I am unable to find any solid evidence supporting that fact.

Since I know most of the major players personally, I am going to make a few phone calls tomorrow and see what I come up with..

As for the original part of this post, I agree that mounting to a strut bar is not the best option and will provide sub standard protection. IMHO

Having tested every piece of my safety equipment (except the fire proofing) in a major off in Feb, I do not take these things lightly. (end over end followed by a barrel roll)

I do however believe that the more supporting information you have, the more likely you are to keep a person from making a poor decision.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by driftin4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I do however believe that the more supporting information you have, the more likely you are to keep a person from making a poor decision.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I couldn't agree more. However, since nearly every sanctioning body in motorsports that requires a harness also requires a cage or roll bar for competition, I wouldn't hold my breath for the answer to the question about harnesses without rollover protection. Someone has to pay for these studies, and frankly the market for harnesses on the street isn't big enough to support that type of expense.

There ARE harness bars that are strong enough to support the MOUNTING of harnesses (rollover protection argument aside) but I have yet to see one that is cheaper than a bolt-in roll bar with a harness bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

45-90 degree angle from what? Horizontal? No way that's safe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I followed the installation instructions. Shoulder straps should be mounted so that they are 45-90 degree angle from the floor of the car. For example, it says the best setup is strapping shoulder straps to a roll bar, thats a 90 degree angle, but anything from 45-90 is safe. I have mine mounted to the stock bolting points for the rear seat belts, its at a 45-50 degree angle.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSVTEC 91 Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I followed the installation instructions. Shoulder straps should be mounted so that they are 45-90 degree angle from the floor of the car. For example, it says the best setup is strapping shoulder straps to a roll bar, thats a 90 degree angle, but anything from 45-90 is safe. I have mine mounted to the stock bolting points for the rear seat belts, its at a 45-50 degree angle.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Okay, unless we're just confusing our terms, I'm not sure if that's correct. If a harness strap is at a 90 degree angle with respect to the floor of the car, is that not perpendicular to the floor of the car? Is a harness strap that is parallel to the floor of the car not at a zero degree angle?

 

I've never seen any harness that recommended a 90 degree mounting angle as being ok. All that does is open the door for spinal compression. If you're in an accident, the belt basically pulls you back along the angle of mounting. If it's a 0 degree mounting (harness bar on or off a rollbar) then it's pulling you backwards. If it's a 90 degree angle, it's pulling you back and DOWN. What brand of harness is this so that I can make sure I never purchase one? I would be extremely hesitant to buy something from a manufacturer that willingly states an option that's dangerous (the exact reason I won't buy anything from any manufacturer that makes something like monkey bars...).

As for proof of rollover danger, like they said above, you won't find it. Not too many people are willing to go out and test something that has a high probability of death or severe injury. Consider the point to a harness is to hold your body still. This is not just keeping you from going forward but side to side as well as up. Now, if you roll your car, the roof comes down, right? But, your body doesn't as it's being held in place with a harness (if it's mounted & adjusted correctly). That means the only option your head has is to move with the roof and against your body (very possibly snapping your neck when it moves beyond it's range of motion). With a 3 point seat belt, your body is free to move in all directions except forward (think about spirited driving where you are bracing yourself against the door, floor, and steering wheel as you go around curves). When you have a rollover with this belt, it's design allows your entire body to lean toward the center of the car and thusly get out of the way of the collapsing roof.

Make sense?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave421 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With a 3 point seat belt, your body is free to move in all directions except forward (think about spirited driving where you are bracing yourself against the door, floor, and steering wheel as you go around curves). When you have a rollover with this belt, it's design allows your entire body to lean toward the center of the car and thusly get out of the way of the collapsing roof.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have a 3 point w/o rollcage, with straps mounted safely and correctly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LSVTEC 91 Civic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have a 3 point w/o rollcage, with straps mounted safely and correctly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe the "3 point" harness that Dave421 is talking about is the retractable OEM style harness and not the "Y" design harnesses. Only the "3 point" OEM retractable harnesses are considered safe for use without rollover protection unless your car was designed to use a harness from the factory (where rollover protection is designed into the crash test specifications of the car itself).